Helping children navigate the complexities of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) requires a delicate balance of understanding, patience, and empowerment. Natasha Daniels, a renowned expert in this field, shares invaluable insights into how parents can support their children in overcoming OCD with positivity and resilience.

Normalizing OCD:

One of the first steps in supporting children with OCD is normalizing the condition. Both parents and children need to understand that they are not alone in this journey. Natasha emphasizes the importance of taking things one step at a time and not allowing the overwhelming nature of OCD to overshadow the progress being made.

Education is Key:

Understanding OCD is crucial for effective support. Natasha urges parents to educate themselves about the condition, its symptoms, and the most effective treatment approaches. By arming themselves with knowledge, parents can better support their children through the challenges of OCD.

The Concept of "Crushing" OCD:

Natasha introduces the empowering concept of "crushing" OCD.” Instead of viewing OCD as an insurmountable obstacle, children are encouraged to see it as something conquerable. This shift in perspective can be transformative, instilling a sense of empowerment and resilience.

Making Treatment Fun:

To engage children in treatment, Natasha suggests incorporating fun activities. By turning exposures into games or playful challenges, children are more likely to participate actively in their own recovery journey. This approach not only makes treatment more enjoyable but also fosters a positive attitude towards facing fears.

Bravery Points:

Natasha introduces the idea of "bravery points" as a motivational tool for children. By rewarding bravery in facing OCD-related fears, children are incentivized to confront their anxieties and engage in exposure exercises. This gamified approach can be highly effective in encouraging progress.

Adapting for Teens and Adults:

While bravery points may resonate well with children, Natasha also offers insights into adapting these strategies for teenagers and adults. Creative incentives tailored to different age groups can help individuals of all ages stay motivated and committed to their treatment goals.

Creative Exposures:

Incorporating creative exposures into treatment can make confronting fears more engaging and less daunting for children. By turning exposures into interactive experiences, such as games or role-playing exercises, children can develop essential coping skills in a supportive environment.

Collaborative Approach:

Natasha emphasizes the importance of collaboration between parents and children in the treatment process. By working together to develop coping strategies and respond to OCD-related behaviors, families can create a supportive and empowering environment for children with OCD.

Addressing Parenting Challenges:

Managing the emotional challenges of parenting a child with OCD can be overwhelming. Natasha offers insights into coping with feelings of anger, frustration, and helplessness, providing strategies for maintaining patience and support during difficult moments.

Long-Term Perspective:

Supporting children with OCD requires a long-term perspective. Building resilience and fostering a family culture that promotes bravery and resilience are essential for long-term success. By focusing on progress rather than perfection, families can navigate the challenges of OCD with hope and determination.

Conclusion:

Natasha Daniels' insights offer a beacon of hope for families navigating the complexities of OCD. By normalizing the condition, educating themselves, and adopting creative and empowering approaches to treatment, parents can support their children in overcoming OCD with positivity and resilience.

TRANSCRIPTION: 

Kimberley: Welcome everybody. Today we have Natasha Daniels. She's the go to person for the kiddos who are struggling with anxiety and OCD. And I'm so grateful to have her here. We are going to talk about helping your kid crush OCD and how we can make it fun and how we can get them across the finish line. So welcome Natasha.

Natasha:  Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Kimberley okay. We've had you on before and I think so much so highly of you. I'm so honored to have you on here again talking. We were talking about kids as well last time but first of all let's just talk about the kiddo, right? The kiddo who has OCD. They're starting this process. Let's sort of even say like they're ready for help, like they want to get better, but at the same [00:01:00] time getting better feels like a huge mountain that they have to climb.

What might you say to the kiddo and the parents at that beginning stage of treatment?

Natasha: A lot of times I think kids don't even realize that they're not alone. They think they have like these really bizarre thoughts and that they'll never be able to stop those bizarre thoughts. So I the first step is really normalizing it for both the parent and the child and letting them know that lots of people have this struggle and that they are able to get through it and have a healthy, productive life. And for parents in particular. about tunnel vision, you know, because it can feel so big. And it's like, let's just, what's your next move? What's your next step that tunnel vision so that the overwhelm doesn't skew your perspective

Kimberley: Yeah, what might be those steps? Like what, what, [00:02:00] what, how would you, how would you have that conversation? I mean, I know for parents, I think there's some relief in getting a diagnosis and being like, Oh, okay, so we know now what this is. And we're here to get treatment and we're assuming this is the right treatment.

But they're still just, you know, it's such a mountain to climb. So what might you say to them?

Natasha: The first step is really educating yourself. I think parents learn a little bit and they just like want to jump into the deep end. They learn a little bit, like, Oh, you shouldn't be accommodating the OCD. So they're like, well, now I don't know what to do because I was doing something that at least help my child in the, in the moment.

But now I'm hearing that that actually makes it worse. And so they start to feel really overwhelmed by the little bit of information they get. So I would say. You know, get some education, whether you read a parent book, or you take a course, or you just watch a bunch of videos, but [00:03:00] like, get some basic foundation of what OCD is because it's going to shift and morph and change and look different. And so understanding, like, lay of the land of like, oh, okay, this is what OCD is. You know, it, it's demanding and it wants me, my child to do or avoid something to get that brief relief. And sometimes that hooks me in and the more they do or avoid that, the bigger it grows, like understanding it would be the first step.

Kimberley: So you wrote an amazing workbook called Crushing OCD Workbook for Kids. Let's talk about this term crushing like crushing OCD and that's sort of the title of our episode as well Like do we want that mindset if we're gonna crush it? Like what does that look like? How does that change our mindset? Do we need to really think of it like crushing it?

Can you kind of share a little bit more about that mindset shift?

Natasha  Yeah. I do use the word crushing a lot. [00:04:00] My courses are all about crushing. My, my book is crushing um, we're not getting rid of. Um, and so. There is a reason why I use crushing versus like overcoming or getting rid of, it is a powerful, kind of aggressive word. And, and I do feel like seeing OCD as kind of like this adversarial thing that you are crushing. Um, 1 can be very therapeutic and empowering for the child, especially when it's externalized and it's personified. So it's this Mr. OCD or this O cloud is us and we're going to crush it. Um, and then physiologically, do see it differently than anxiety. And I think sometimes with anxiety. we talk about, I kind of equate anxiety as like the overreactive lifeguard, and he's trying to, he's trying to look out for you, but just kind of, [00:05:00] he's sending the emergency alarm bells all the time. So maybe he needs some retraining. Maybe we crush him too, but that I think has more flexibility physiologically. Where I feel like OCD is like this foreign thought that's coming into my brain that is so incongruent with who I am, depending on the theme. And there's no part of it that feels like protective or aligned, um, in the way that OCD can show up.

And it's very glitchy, you know, and physiologically, a different part of the brain. And it is. It's a, you know, it's more of a glitch versus an overreactive. So I do feel like about crushing it is a good analogy.

Kimberley Well, I think too it's OCD can be so powerful and make us feel like we have to kind of like gulp down and, and wither it. Right. And so it does kind of require our kiddos to stand up to it. And I think crushing it [00:06:00] really gives that metaphor of like, we're going to stand up to it. We're going to win. This is like, we're going, you know, it's point systems or something like that.

Like who's going to win this baseball match, but we're going to beat it against OCD. So I think that that is really helpful. And I think kids get behind it too, like Kids want to crush things.

Natasha: Yeah. And, and they really need to feel empowered because it is so overpowering more than really any other disorder. It is just, it's they're being bombarded with these thoughts and feelings and to, to sit in a storm. And not do what OCD wants you to do a, is a really brave thing to do. And I do feel like kids can really get behind the idea of overcoming and crushing, not overcoming, but crushing it and feeling empowered that they have more strength than OCD does.

Kimberley: Okay. So in the workbook, you talk about these fun activities and I have found having my own [00:07:00] children, but also being a clinician, if it's not fun, they're not that interested. What's the payoff really? So, so can you share with us some of the fun activities or ways in which we can start to approach this topic with our kids?

Natasha: Yeah, I think anything can be fun and we want our kids to, to have fun and we want to gamify it. So a lot of the workbook talks about One, how to view OCD in a really fun way. So I use a lot of cartoons and a lot of metaphors so they can see it. Um, also talking about incentivizing them and, you know, adding points or bravery points to do, do scary things.

And so it becomes kind of this, Gamified version of, of, of crushing their OCD.

Kimberley: So bravery points. What does that mean?

Natasha: So bravery points can be different for different families. Um, and we use them in my, my house as well for [00:08:00] my own kids with OCD, where we set up kind of like a virtual store. And there are certain things you can have this pretty structured or not structured where you points and, um, you know, kids can do things that OCD will not. Want them to do or do things or not do things that OCD wants them to do, whichever way OCD is working or do exposures they're purposely triggering OCD and then they earn points and they can cash those points in and so Even at my house, you know, my child does not get Roebucks unless he cashes his points in There's like a direct line there.

My daughter doesn't get slime from very expensive place, unless she wants to cash her points in. And those are done through steps that are, that's crushing their anxiety and OCD.

Kimberley: And so I was actually going to ask this in terms of bravery points. This is not just for kids. This is for teens too. So you might be doing this for like, how might this apply to [00:09:00] teens or do we use bravery reward points for teens as well?

Natasha: Yeah. I think it can be used for anyone. I mean, I think even adults can, can gamify their battles with anxiety and OCD. Um, I mean, I've set that up for myself where I've done something that would be really hard. And then I've offered myself incentives, you know, ironically, or not really ironically, but interestingly. Intrinsic incentive does start to happen. You start to get traction. Um, I know for, for the kids that I've worked with in my practice and even my own kids, I've seen the, the pride when they've done something really scary and the relief of like, Oh my gosh, that was not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. And then the empowerment. So I kind of want to preface this with. can have these external reinforcers, but they're there to celebrate those brave moves. They're there to make the association of this is really fun, but the internal motivation does start to get some traction down the [00:10:00] road. And so even with teens offer them incentives, and that might look different.

I know, um, I've used this example a lot, like for my older daughter, she would net, she would not be driving today. Absolutely not be driving. If it wasn't for me. ordering her Starbucks. And I would just order her Starbucks and I'd be like, okay, it's ordered, you know, you just need to go pick it up. And she, she has social anxiety as well.

So she'd like, and she feels bad about spending money. So there was all sorts of things that were actually working in my favor. Cause she felt so bad. She's like, mom, you just ordered it. But I said, I wasn't ready to drive. And I was like, you don't have to pick it up. It'll just be sitting there. It'll just be wastey wastey. And she would go there. I mean, she had three. cycles of driving school before I did this.

Natasha: She was well skilled, but I mean, that's a very basic incentive. It was like, I'm going to reward you. Here's an extent, you know, an incentive to go do it. And, you can be creative with teens, [00:11:00] whether it is. I mean, in my practice, I would get like Xbox controls or like one girl wanted a green screen for her YouTube channel. Like, and it was just that weren't like far, far down the road, but little incentives to celebrate and say, you know, you're doing really hard stuff and it doesn't have to be all boring and, and miserable. It can be fun too.

Kimberley: Yeah. In our house, it's Taylor Swift records. We're working our way to get every single one of them. Um, right. And, and, and you get them after you, you know, achieve a certain amount of things. So I think I love this. Um, and I think it, it can, again, it can be age dependent. My son is working towards Pokemon cards as well for different things as well.

So I love that.

Natasha: Yeah.

Kimbelrey: So, okay. So bravery rewards. What about, um, The, the other work of treatment and crushing OCD, are there other [00:12:00] fun activities that you have found to be really powerful, whether it's more in how we educate and conceptualize OCD or get them to do the scary thing?

Natasha: Yeah. I think you can get creative and really anything that you're doing, uh, exposures can be fun as far as creating things that are triggering the OCD on purpose. They don't always have to be serious and boring. Um, you can create. Fun things, um, you can do interesting exposures, whether you create a game and you're playing games around it, like go fish, but you change the go fish to different names related to what they're struggling with.

Or used, like, um, jelly beans, you know, that tastes gross for my child that has, like, metaphobia and issues. And so thinking out of the box, um, in my practice, I would use, like. like two truths and a [00:13:00] lie they had moral OCD. And so we talk about, you know, I'm going to tell you two truths, but one and the, the third one will be a lie and you have to guess which one it is.

And that's a fun game in general, uh, but very overwhelming for someone with moral OCD. And so I think sometimes we think it all has to be serious, but there are a lot of creative ways that we can do exposures that. that can make us laugh. And even when we're responding to our kids, and let's say you don't want to feed the OCD. And so, um, let's just use a concrete example. Like if your child has moral or scrupulosity OCD, and they're always saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know, repetitively, that's kind of a compulsive thing and you know that you're not going to feed it. And so you come up with a plan of, I'm not going to accept your sorry. You can even do something silly with that, um, and I've had parents who like, they would say it in a different accent or they would sing it or they'd say, you know, sarcastically, I'm sorry. [00:14:00] You're sorry is not accepted or, you know, like you can, you can even come up with fun, sarcastic things in your response to OCD as long as you're partnering with your child.

Kimberley: Tell me about the partnering though, right? So in an example of where you're like, you know, let's say you use your most funny Donald Duck accent, um, in saying, I don't, I don't want to, you're sorry. Um, um, You know, how, how, what if that doesn't feel like partnering to them? What if that feels like, you know, uh, like a, a betrayal to them or they, they're very invested in getting that compulsion done?

What would you suggest?

Natasha: Yeah. You definitely want to collaborate with your child first and say, you know, I know either they bring it to you or you bring it to them. Like I noticed that when you say this, it's actually your OCD saying that to me. And because I love you, I'm not going to give what OCD wants [00:15:00] anymore. So prefacing it with, I'm noticing that this is a compulsion that I'm part of, and I'm, I love you.

And so I'm not going to be part of that compulsion. And can respond in these ways, how would you like me to be, or how do you, how would you like me to respond so you can partner if they can come up with a creative way? Um, like, for instance, in my case with my son, he said, tell me, say, I'm sorry, is not accepted.

Like, he literally scripted it for me. when I said it in the moment, he wasn't happy with that because then he was panicking and he was feeling overwhelmed. And so he, I don't like when you say that, but that was our agreement. Um, I might pivot in that moment if he's looking really overwhelmed and I might not say anything because maybe it's not a time to be funny or maybe poking back in a really aggressive way isn't being well received in that moment, but that doesn't mean I'm going to feed the OCD.

Okay. you might have a child that doesn't want to partner with you that says, I want you to do this and this makes me feel better. And [00:16:00] why are you being mean? Um, and in that case, humor is not appropriate. You know, you're not going to use humor. You might just say, well, I love you. And so I'm not going to respond and you let them know you're going to respond, but the humor part, if we're the only ones laughing, then it's not really funny. So we have to be very careful about that.

Kimberley: Yeah. So, and I mean, it's true that crushing OCD or any, you know, mental health disorder is like a family affair. And so as a, as a parent, What is the training for them in this sort of idea of crushing it and making it fun? What, what personal work would you recommend they do, um, on their own in their own therapy, whether they're with a parenting coach or a therapist or with each other as partners, what would you suggest a parent do to prep for this [00:17:00] sort of marathon that we're on?

Natasha: It's a great question because there is so much parenting work that, that needs to be done because it's our journey too. And so I feel like the parent journey is unique in and of itself, you know, raising a child with OCD Um, it's not for the faint hearted. So learning, how do you sit in discomfort when your child is sitting in discomfort? you handle your child being triggered and not swooping in and doing what your child's OCD wants? hard to, to be a witness to your child's struggles, to know that in the short term, you can do something. Some of the time. appeases the OCD, but then grows it long term. And so, um, getting your own support or finding your own way to ground or your own coping skills of how do you handle that when you're, when the child's OCD is having a tantrum. Um, and it will try to kind of break you down so that you [00:18:00] give in so that there's work in that area. I think also, how do we handle our own, how do we handle our own mental health when our child is having mental health issues? Because We are not a blank slate. We come with a lens and that lens has our own childhood.

It has our own experiences, has our own mental health issues. And and so we're seeing our child's mental health issues through our lens no one can have a clear lens, but to have some awareness of I'm bringing this to the table, When my child does this, it triggers this for me, which is actually not about my child, but that's about my dad, or that's about my childhood experience. And how do I work through that so that it's not impeding how I'm my child. I'm not dealing with that. Yeah.

Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. What's, what's interesting for me. is I was thinking about this about parenting in general is [00:19:00] sometimes I parent the way my parents parented without even Questioning. Is that the way I want to parent like it'd be sometimes I'll catch myself Parenting my child in the way my parents was when I'm like didn't help me like that wasn't helpful You know what?

I mean? And and it's so automatic. It really takes slowing down and being like wait I'm What did I need during that time? How can I be that for my child? It's so automatic sometimes. And I think that, um, so many parents, I mean, I wish we were given a manual, but like, it's a lot of emotional regulation work of our own to sit while your child is struggling.

Um, especially with anxiety, cause you know, we just, it's so easy to fix it by giving them the compulsion or. You know, so I really feel for the parents that I, you know, that we treat in that it's so much emotional regulation. Would there be a specific [00:20:00] set of tools that you would give them or do you think it's very much dependent on the person?

Natasha: I think it's dependent on the person as far as what they're bringing. What they're bringing in the moment. Um, but I do talk about lovingly detach and, and a lot of times parents hear that and they get concerned because they think detachment means that I'm not present for my child. And it's actually the opposite to me.

It's like, how can I be? 99 percent or 95 percent there for my child. I'm like, I'm an anchor for them and I'm not bringing anything to the equation.

Kimberley: Yeah,

Natasha: And that is hard. And a lot of it actually is this. It may seem really weird, but I feel like a lot of it is building up your skills. Through like mindfulness, you know, how do I stay in the moment?

I'm only eating this food. I'm only petting my dog and that training like that mental training of your brain of like being Literally only in the [00:21:00] moment and learning how to fine tune that is actually a great survival tool because I find that When I'm in the moment with my kids and I have been working on that muscle in my brain, I'm able to not see as much through that lens of my own childhood or my own triggers.

And I'm just like, what does she need from me right now? And that's the question I always tell parents to ask. What do they need from me right now? Like, what is my job in this moment right now? And sometimes it is to ignore them because I know with my daughter, at least, she doesn't like the attention of anxiety.

Like when I can tell clearly she's having an anxiety attack, she doesn't want me to hover. And that's really hard because. Inside, you're feeling really anxious about it, but you know that your anxiety or your, your energy is contagious. And so yourself and be like, in this moment, she needs me to go, you know, about the morning routine and just act like nothing's happening. Or it might be the opposite for your child, right? But knowing it's not about us, what do they need in [00:22:00] that moment? Um, and that is a powerful skill that has to be, it's a daily practice.

Kimberley: and different for each kid.

Natasha: Right. Vastly

Kimberley: Yeah,

Natasha: Yeah.

Kimberley: where it gets complicated. I think he's like because you know, we go Okay, this is the way we do it This is how we do it from now on and then you have another kid and you're like wait that doesn't work for them

Natasha: Yup.

Kimberley: let's shift it up and let's change it I'm wondering if we, you can quickly speak to a couple of emotions that I know show up with parents, you know, cause again, it's as much the parent game as it is the kids game.

So where as clinicians and as parents, where they're to really champion our kids to ride the wave of discomfort and to use their skills and to manage it. What about for the parent they might be experiencing? I know a lot of parents report. anger that shows up at the, you know, when their kid isn't [00:23:00] using their skills and so forth.

Um, do you have any, any advice to them when anger does show up or frustration? Yeah. Yeah. And

Natasha: being angry then we're like, Oh, I responded angrily or I'm feeling frustrated and I shouldn't. And being accepting of the fact that it's okay, it's normal for me to feel angry. This is a frustrating situation and I want to change it and I want to steer the ship and I can't.

Yup. You know, my child's not picking up their part. And so I think just validating that anger, um, which I can be, I think can be sometimes hard because we want to. Kind of we feel guilty about the anger, but then understanding where it's coming from and and again going inward There's so much inward work I think when you're raising a child with anxiety and OCD because it brings out all sorts of stuff for us So asking oh, it's interesting that I'm angry or that made me really [00:24:00] angry or sometimes I'll even say to myself like in my head like Natasha, that was like a huge response. why did you blow up so big on that? That was more than what was actually just happening then. And then do some self diving of like, what was that about it? Oh, that reminded me of this. Or I feel like I'm doing 99 percent of this and he's doing 1%. And what do we, what can we control? And so maybe if I'm feeling that way, then it's a shift of, to pull back. If I'm feeling like I'm doing 99 percent and that's making me angry. I can't control the pace of my child and their ability to use their skills because that's their journey, but I can control invested I am. And so if I'm doing 99 percent of this, then I'm going to pull back a little bit give, you know, invite them to meet me more in the middle.

Kimberley: often I find under the fear is, I mean, so under the anger is the fear that we're going to be managing this for a while, or, you know, the parents grief [00:25:00] of This is interrupted the family system. So I think it's so normal. Um, I agree with you just to normalize that as a normal part of parenting, a kiddo who's struggling.

Um, yeah. Okay. So in terms of getting that kid across the finish line or setting them up better things like setting them up for success, is there anything that you would tell the parents? as a mindset shift, like, you know, again, this is a marathon, not a sprint. What would you tell them in terms of the whole family system?

How, what are skills and tools that they can be using to help set up a system or a family that can help this child crush OCD?

Natasha: Yeah. I think mindset's really important because a lot of times is a perception of, I need to cure this, you know, or we need to get the skills and that they can overcome this and OCD is a chronic [00:26:00] condition. so we're wired, you know, if we're going to have anxiety or OCD, that this is going to pop up possibly in our life periodically. yeah, Yeah. So instead of thinking, like, how do I, you know, get rid of this cold or give them the skills and then we've we're done with this because that sets you and your child up for failure. I think having an idea of I'm going to create a home a family culture where we. Where we know we have the skills. We know what OCD is. We know how to identify it. Um, we live a life of exposures. We live a life of doing brave things. we talk about it and it doesn't have to be, I mean, I think once you're in maintenance, and you've really kind of. Learned all the skills that you have learned. I mean, we live in my house.

It's a, it's a culture of anxiety. And OCD is kind of just part of our family culture. Like we do scary things or my kids might say that was an exposure or they earn points periodically. And so developing that in your, in your family as a system of like, just part of [00:27:00] your family, just the way your family functions and it works can be really helpful.

And there's, there's, Brave things that anyone in the family can do. And so it can be a family affair where I had to go present at work and I didn't really want to present, you know, but I did it. It was really brave. And so using those analogy, using those examples, I think can be really. Normalizing for the child with with OCD.

Kimberley: Yeah. So even, even for the non OCD kiddos, you would use that in terms of if they had to do a violin recital or a math. a national math test or that kind of thing.

Natasha: Yeah, I mean, I think it can go way beyond OCD. It's how to build resilience because really at the crux of OCD is resilience. It's how to sit with discomfort, how to sit with uncertainty of not being 100 percent of something how to how to deal with something that feels uncomfortable and do it anyway.

And so those are those are resiliency [00:28:00] tools that anyone

Kimberley: Yeah. And it's such a great mind shift for everyone because parents are doing exposures. They are doing scary things by not accommodating their child as well. That's an exposure for a parent pretty well. Um, so you can conceptualize it that way. I love that. Yeah. Um, What does it look like? I love that you also mentioned in terms of like this is a long term thing.

Like this is just a family culture thing. This is how we exist in the world. What does it look long term though? You know, do we do, I've had so many parents say to me, I don't want to give, but you know, the, the, um, The bravery points forever. I don't want to over saturate extrinsic motivation. Like, do you have any thoughts on that in terms of long term use of that method?

Natasha: mean, it depends on your child's age and like where they are as far as building up skills. we have it in the background because I don't, [00:29:00] I don't give my kids money for chores, I don't. And so it's just been part of our thing where if they want, I guess what they would call in the UK pocket money, you know, if they want, they want spending money. In general, that really works for me for them to do brave things in general. Um, and so that is just part of the way that we have that now, my 20 year old's not earning like bravery points, you know, across, you know, state lines in California where she's in college, you know, but she's, she's, doing that lifestyle.

And so I don't feel like you necessarily have to have these systems or incentives. Um, you might hit a bump and you might say, you want to earn something to overcome this thing that you're working on. Um, you know, a new struggle that they're having. So you might pull it out periodically for me. I don't want I'm like, I'm trying to teach my kids the idea of earning in general. And so it kind of. Fits well, because it's like, [00:30:00] you're not going to get things for free. And then there's this pride of like, oh, I earned that. Or let me work really hard at something. So you can get very ambiguous about it. You can have it be of just kind of your, your regular family incentives and how you're doing it, or you don't do it at all.

I mean, It does eventually, um, get stale and so you have to either change it up or you take a break from it or your child is motivated by intrinsic motivation that they're feeling really great that they're able to go to school again or sleep on their own or do the things that were overwhelming for them.

Kimberley: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's the beauty is once you've done some exposures, you see that it works. There's a buy in. Um, but that buy in is hard at the beginning, which is why you do have to make it fun. And sometimes you do have to have it be sort of outside motivators to get you there. Yeah.

Excellent. So, um, tell me about [00:31:00] your workbook where people can get it, where people can hear about you. Um, cause I know you have so many awesome resources.

Natasha: Yeah. Well, I wrote, um, OCD workbook for kids because I wanted people to be able to have a book that was very simplistic that would walk them through basically what I would do in a therapy session, or therapy sessions. And so it just kind of walks them through OCD treatment. So it could be a great supplement to therapy.

It could be great for a therapist to use, but it can also be a great standalone. Um, and it's meant for kids to be able to do either on their own or navigate with a parent depending on their age. And starts off with educating them on what is OCD because I told you, I feel like that's so important. Many disguises of OCD, um, normalizing it all the way to understanding how OCD works and then offense and defense about if OCD is knocking versus [00:32:00] knocking on OCD. How to do exposures at home and then how to, how to maintain that. And I also touch on like self esteem as well, because I feel like. OCD can really hurt the self esteem.

So there's a little bit of empowerment and self identity in there as well.

Kimberley: So important too. OCD can be mean, right? So, and knock people down. So I love that you're talking about that. And where can people find out more about you?

Natasha: Um, well they can get the book on Amazon. They can find anything about me at my website at at parenting survival school. com. I mean, nope. At parenting survival, at parenting survival. com too many websites.

Kimberley: No, I understand. I'm in the same boat. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about crushing OCD with kids. Is there anything you would leave parents and children with a little bit of inspiration or? One last point that you think that you really [00:33:00] want them to know.

Natasha: Well, I think there's always hope. I mean, I have seen kids in very acute stages of struggling with OCD and I have seen kids make such big project progress. So there is always hope. And our kids are more than our, their OCD and kids with OCD tend to be the most, of the most compassionate, kindhearted, out of the box thinkers.

And, and so I wouldn't even trade that with my own kids because I feel like the, the positive personality traits that, are underneath all those struggles are, are beautiful. So

Kimberley: Yeah.

Natasha: that's important to do.

Track 1: And, and I think from, from my experience is nurture those parts that are not OCD, like what are their hobbies? How can we really build a life around OCD in terms of, you know, the instruments and the hobbies and the talents and the sports and the, you know, the community and that. So forth. So yeah, thank you so much Natasha for coming on.

I am so I [00:34:00] love, I love your book. Thank you for writing it. I know writing a book is no easy feat. So congratulations on your book. Um, and I'm excited because you've got more on the, on the coming down the pipeline. I know you have a memoir coming out, so we'll be having you back on later in the year.

Natasha: appreciate that. Thanks.

Navigating the intricate landscape of mental health can often feel like deciphering a complex puzzle, especially when differentiating between conditions ADHD vs.anxiety. This challenge is further compounded by the similarities in symptoms and the potential for misdiagnosis. However, understanding the nuances and interconnections between these conditions can empower individuals to seek appropriate treatment and improve their quality of life.

ADHD, or Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, is a neurodevelopmental condition characterized by symptoms of inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity. While commonly diagnosed in childhood, ADHD persists into adulthood for many individuals, affecting various aspects of their daily lives, from academic performance to personal relationships. On the other hand, anxiety disorders encompass a range of conditions marked by excessive fear, worry, and physical symptoms such as heart palpitations and dizziness.

The intersection of ADHD and anxiety is a topic of significant interest within the mental health community. Individuals with ADHD often experience anxiety, partly due to the challenges and frustrations stemming from ADHD symptoms. Similarly, the constant struggle with focus and organization can exacerbate feelings of anxiety, creating a cyclical relationship between the two conditions.

A critical aspect of differentiating ADHD from anxiety involves examining the onset and progression of symptoms. ADHD is present from an early age, with symptoms often becoming noticeable during childhood. In contrast, anxiety can develop at any point in life, triggered by stressors or traumatic events. Therefore, a thorough evaluation of an individual's history is vital in distinguishing between the two.

Moreover, the manifestation of symptoms can offer clues. For example, while both ADHD and anxiety can lead to concentration difficulties, the underlying reasons differ. In ADHD, the inability to focus is often due to intrinsic attention regulation issues. In anxiety, however, the concentration problems may arise from excessive worry or fear that consumes cognitive resources.

Understanding the unique and overlapping aspects of ADHD and anxiety is crucial for effective treatment. For ADHD, interventions typically include medication, such as stimulants, alongside behavioral strategies to enhance executive functioning skills. Anxiety disorders, meanwhile, may be treated with a combination of psychotherapy, such as cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), and, in some cases, medication to manage symptoms.

The integration of treatment modalities is paramount, particularly for individuals experiencing both ADHD and anxiety. Addressing the ADHD symptoms can often alleviate anxiety by improving self-esteem and coping mechanisms. Similarly, managing anxiety can reduce the overall stress load, making ADHD symptoms more manageable.

In conclusion, ADHD and anxiety represent two distinct yet interrelated conditions within the spectrum of mental health. The complexity of their relationship underscores the importance of personalized, comprehensive treatment plans. By fostering a deeper understanding of these conditions, individuals can navigate the path to wellness with greater clarity and confidence. This journey, though challenging, is a testament to the resilience and strength inherent in the human spirit, as we seek to understand and overcome the obstacles that lie within our minds.

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. We are talking about ADHD vs anxiety, how to tell the difference, kind of get you in the know of what is what. 

Today, we have Dr. Ryan Sultan. He is an Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University. He knows all the things about ADHD and cannabis use, does a lot of research in this area, and I want to get the tea on all things ADHD and anxiety so that we can work it out. So many of you listening have either been misdiagnosed or totally feel like they don’t really understand the difference. And so, let’s talk about it. Welcome, Dr. Sultan.

ADHD vs. ANXIETY

 Ryan: Thank you. I really like doing these things. I think it’s fun. I think psychiatrists, which is what I am, I think one of the ways that we really fail, and medical doctors in general don’t do well at this, which is like, let’s spend some time educating the public. And before my current position, I did epidemiology and public health. And so, I learned a lot about that, and I was like, “You know how you can help people? We have a crisis here. Let’s just teach people things about how to find resources and what they can do on their own.” And so, I really enjoy these opportunities. 

WHAT IS ADHD vs. WHAT IS ANXIETY? 

 I was thinking about your question, and I was thinking how we might want to talk about this idea of ADHD versus anxiety, which is a common thing. People come in, and they see me very commonly wanting an evaluation, and they think they have ADHD. And I understand why they think they have ADHD, but their main thing is basically reporting a concentration or focus issue, which is a not specific symptom. Just like if I’m moody today, that doesn’t mean I have a mood disorder. If I’m anxious today, it doesn’t mean I have an anxiety disorder. I might even feel depressed today; it doesn’t mean I have a depression disorder. I could even have a psychotic symptom in your voice, and it does not mean that I have a psychotic disorder. It’s more complicated than that. 

 I think one of the things that the DSM that we love here in the United States—but it’s the best thing we have; it’s like capitalism and democracy; it’s like the best things that we have; we don’t have better solutions yet—is that it describes these things in a way that uses plain language to try to standardize it. But it’s confusing to the general public and I think it’s also confusing to clinicians when you’re trying to learn some of these conditions. 

WHEN IS ADHD vs. ANXIETY DIAGNOSED?

 And certainly, one of the things that have happened in my field that people used to talk a lot about is the idea that, is pediatric, meaning kid diagnosis of ADHD, which often in my area here in the United States will be done by pediatrician, are they adequately able to do that? Because poor pediatricians have to know a lot. And ADHD, psychiatric disorders are complicated. Mental health conditions are super complicated. They’re so complicated that there are seven different types of degree programs that end up helping you with them. PsyD, PhD, MD, clinical social worker, mental health counselor, and then there’s nurse practitioner. So, like super complicated counseling. So, how do we think about this? 

The first thing I try to remind everyone is, if you’re not sure what’s going on with you, please filter your self-diagnosis. You can think about it, that’s great. Write your notes down, da-da-da, but I would avoid acting purely on that. You really want to do your best to get some help from the outside. And I know that mental health treatment is not accessible to everyone. This is an enormous problem that existed before the pandemic and still exists now. I say that because I say that all the time, and I wish I had a solution for you. But if you have access to someone that you think can help you tease this throughout, you want to do that. 

SYMPTOMS OF ADHD vs. ANXIETY

 But what I would like us to do, instead of listing criteria, which you can all Google on WebMD, let’s think about them in a larger context. So, mental health symptoms fall into these very broad categories. And so, some of them are anxiety, which OCD used to be under, but it’s now in its own area. Another one, would be mood. You can have moods that are really high, moods that are really low. Another one you could take ADHD, you could lump it in neurodevelopmental, which would mix it with autism and learning disorders. You could lump it with attention, but the problem with that is it would also get lumped with dementia, which are processes that overlap, but they’re occurring at different ends of the spectrum. 

 So, let’s think about ADHD and why someone might have ADHD or why you might think someone has ADHD, because this should be easier for people to tease out, I think. ADHD is not a condition that appears in adulthood. That’s like hands down. Adult ADHD is people that had ADHD and still have ADHD as adults. And most people with ADHD will go on to still have at least an attenuated version, meaning their symptoms are a little less severe, maybe, but over 60% will still meet criteria. It’s not a disorder of children. Up until the ‘90s, we thought it was a disorder of kids only. So, you turned 18, and magically, you couldn’t have ADHD anymore, which didn’t make any sense anyway. 

 So, to really get a good ADHD diagnosis, you got to go backwards. If you’re not currently an eight-year-old, you have to think a little bit about or talk to your family, or look at your school records. And ideally, that’s what you want to do, is you want to see, is there evidence that you have, things that look like ADHD then? So, you were having trouble maintaining your attention for periods of time. Your attention was scattered in different ways. Things that are mentally challenging that require you to force yourself to do it, that particularly if you don’t like them, this was really hard for you. You were disorganized. People thought that things went in one year and out the other. 

 Now this exists on a spectrum. And depending on the difficulty of your scholastic experience and how far you pushed yourself in school, these symptoms could show up at different times. For example, it’s not uncommon for people to show up in college or in graduate school. Less so now, but historically, people were getting diagnosed as late as that, because now they have to write a dissertation. For those of you guys who don’t know, a dissertation is being asked to write a book, okay? You’re being asked to write a book. And what did you do? You went to college. Okay, you went to college, and then you had some master’s classes, and then you get assigned an advisor, and you just get told to figure out what your project is. It is completely unstructured. It is completely self-sufficient. It is absurd. I’m talking about a real academic classic PhD. That is going to bring it. If somebody has ADHD, that’s going to bring it out because of the executive functioning involved in that, the organization, the planning. I got to make an outline, I got to meet with my mentor regularly, I got to check in with them, I got to revise it, I got to plan a study or a literature review. There’s so many steps involved. So, that would be something that some people doesn’t come up with then. 

 Other kids, as an eight-year-old boy that I’m treating right now, who has a wonderful family that is super supportive, and they have created this beautiful environment for him that accommodates him so much that he has not needed any medication despite the fact that there’s lots of evidence that he is struggling and now starting to feel bad about himself, and he has self-esteem issues because he just doesn’t understand why he has to try so hard and why he can’t maintain his attention in this scenario, which is challenging for him. 

 So, ADHD kids and adults, you want to think of them as their brains as being three to five years behind everyone else in their development, okay? And they are catching up, but they’re more immature, and they’re immature in certain ways. And so, this kid’s ability to maintain his attention, manage his own behaviors, stay organized, it’s like mom is sitting with this kid doing his homework with him continuously, and if she stops at all, he can’t hold it together on his own. So, when we think about that with him, like, okay, well, that’s maybe when it’s showing up with him. That’s when it’s starting to have a struggle with him. 

 But let’s relate it to anxiety. One problem would be, do you have ADHD or do you have anxiety? Well, there’s another problem. Another problem is having ADHD is a major risk factor for developing an anxiety disorder, okay? So now I’m the eight-year-old boy, and this eight-year-old boy does not have the financial resources to get this evaluation, or the parents that are knowledgeable enough to know that, it might even have been years ago where there was less knowledge about this. And he’s just struggling all the time, and he feels bad about himself, and he’s constantly getting into trouble because he is losing things because he can’t keep track of things because he’s overwhelmed. And now he feels bad about himself. Okay. He has anxiety associated with that. So now we’re building this anxiety. So he might even get mood symptoms, and now we have a risk for depression. 

 So, this is just one of the reasons why these things are like these tangled messes. You ever like have a bunch of cords that you have one of the dealies, you keep throwing them in a box, and now you’re like, “What do I do? Do I just throw the cords out or entangle them?” It’s a very tangled mess. Of course, it takes time to sort through it. The reason I started with ADHD is that it has a clear trajectory of it when it happens. And in general, it’s a general rule, symptomatology, meaning like how severe it is and the number of symptoms you have and how impairing it is. They’re going to be decreasing as you get older. At least until main adulthood, there’s new evidence that shows there might be a higher risk for dementia in that population. 

 But let’s put geriatric aside. There’s a different developmental trajectory. Whereas anxiety, oh God, I wish I could simplify anxiety that much. Anxiety can happen in different ways. So, let’s start with the easy thing. Why would you confuse them in this current moment? If I am always worried about things, if I’m always ruminating about things, I’m thinking about it over and over again, I’m trying to figure out where I should live or what I should do about this, and I just keep thinking about it over and over again, and I’m in like a cycle. Like, pop-pa-pa pop-pa pop-pa-pa-pa. And then you’re asking me to do other things. I promise you, I will have difficulty concentrating. I promise you, I can’t concentrate because it’s like you’re using your computer and how many windows do you have open? How many things are you running? I mean, it doesn’t happen as much anymore, but I think most of us, I meant to remember times where you’re like, “Oh, my computer is not able to handle this anymore.” You’re using up some of your mind, and you can call that being present. 

 So, when people talk about mindfulness and improving attention, one of the things that they’re probably improving is this: they’re trying to get the person to stop running that 15, 20% program all the time. And it’s like your brain got upgraded because you can now devote yourself to the task in front of you. And the anxiety is not slowing you down or intruding upon you, either as an intrusive thought in an OCD way or just a sort of intrusive worry that’s probably hampering your ability to do something concentration-intensive. And then if you have anxiety problems and you’re not sleeping right, well, now your memory is impaired because of that. So, there’s this cycle that ends up happening over and over again. 

IS HYPERACTIVITY ANXIETY OR ADHD?

Kimberley: Yeah, I think a lot of people as well that I’ve talked to clients and listeners, also with anxiety, there’s this general physiological irritability. Like a little jitteriness, can’t sit in their chair, which I think is another maybe way that misdiagnosis can -- it’s like, “Oh, they’re hyperactive. They’re struggling to sit in their chair. That might be what’s going on for them.” Is that similar to what you’re saying?

 Ryan: Yeah. So, really good example, and this one we can do a little simpler. I mean, the statement I’m going to say is not 100% true, but it’s mostly true. If you are an adult, like over 25 for sure, and you are physically jittery, it is very unlikely that that is ADHD. Because ADHD, the whole mechanism as we understand it, or one of the mechanisms causing the thing we call ADHD, which of course is like a made-up thing that we’re using to classify it, is that your prefrontal cortex is not done developing. So, it needs to get myelinated, which is essentially like -- think about it like upgrading from dial up to some great, not even a cable modem. You’re going right to Verizon Fios. Like amazing, okay. It’s much faster, and it’s growing. And that’s the part of you that makes you most human. That’s the most sophisticated part of your brain. It’s not the part that helps you breathe or some sort of physiological thing, which, by the way, is causing some of those anxiety symptoms. They’re ramped up in a sympathetic nervous system way, fight or fight way. It’s the part that’s actually slowing you down. That’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, calm down, calm down, calm down.” This is why, and everyone’s is not as developed. So, we’re all developing this thing through 25, at least ADHD is through 28. 

 Car insurance goes down to 25 because your driving gets better, because your judgment gets better, because you can plan better, because you are less risk-taking. So, your insurance has now gone down. So, the insurance company knows this about us. And our FMRI scans, you scan people’s brains, it supports that change. These correlate to some extent with symptomology, not enough to be a diagnosis to answer the person’s question that they’re going to have that. I wish it was. It’s not a diagnosis. We haven’t been able to figure out how to do that yet. 

 So, by the time you’re 25, that’s developed. And the symptoms that go away first with ADHD are usually hyperactivity, because that’s the inability to manage all the impulses of your body, not in an anxious, stressed-out way, but in an excited way. You think of the happy, well-supported, running around ADHD kid is kind of silly and fun. It’s a totally different mood experience than the anxiety experience. Anxiety experience is unpleasant for the most part. Unless your anxiety is targeting you to hyper-focus to get something done, which is bumping up some of your dopamine, which is again the opposite experience of probably having ADHD, it’s a hyper-focus experience, certainly, the deficit part of ADHD, you’re going to be feeling a different physiological, the irritability you talked about 100%. You’re irritable because you are trying so hard to manage this awful feeling you have in your body. You physically feel so uncomfortable. It is intolerable. 

 I have this poor, anxious young man that has to do a very socially awkward thing today. Actually, not that socially awkward. He created the situation, which is one of the ways we’re working on it with him in treatment. And I’m letting him go through and do this as an exposure because it’ll be fine. And he’s literally interacting with another one of our staff members. But he finds these things intolerable. He talks about it like we are lighting him on fire. So, he’s trying to hold it together, or whatever your physiological experience is. It may not have been as dramatic as I described. You’re irritable when people are asking things of you because you don’t have much left. You’re not in some carefree mood where you’re like, “Whatever, I’m super easygoing. I don’t care.” No, you’re not feeling easygoing right now. You’re very, very stressed out. 

 Stress and anxiety are very linked. Just like sadness and depression are very linked, and like loneliness and depression are linked, but they’re not the same thing. Stress and anxiety are very, very linked, and they’re similar feelings, and they’re often occurring at the same time and interacting with each other.

ADD vs. ADHD

 Kimberley: Right. One question really quick. Just to be clear, what about ADD vs. ADHD?

 Ryan: We love to change diagnostic criteria. People sit around. There’s a committee, there’s a whole bunch of studies. And we’re always trying to epidemiologically and characterologically differentiate what these different conditions are. That’s what the field is trying to do as an academic whole. And so, there’s disagreements about what should be where. So, the OCD thing moving is one of them. 

 The ADD thing, it’s like a nomenclature thing. So, the diagnosis got described that the new current version of the diagnosis is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and then you have three specifiers, okay? So, that’s the condition you have. And then you can have combined, which is hyperactive and inattentive. Just inattentive, just hyperactive. And impulsive is built in there. So, it’s really not that interesting. People love to be like, “No, no, I have ADD. No, I don’t have the hyperactive.” And I’m like, “I know, but from a billing point of view, the insurance company will not accept that code anymore. It doesn’t exist.”

DOES ADHD OR ANXIETY IMPACT CONCENTRATION? 

Kimberley: Yeah. So, just so that I know I have this right, and you can please correct me, is if you have this more neurological, like you said, condition of ADHD, you’ll have that first, and then you’ll get maybe some anxiety and some depression as a result of that condition. Whereas for those folks, if their primary was anxiety, it wouldn’t be so much that anxiety would cause the ADHD. It would be more the symptoms of concentration are a symptom of the anxiety. Is that what you’re saying?

Ryan: Yes, and every permutation that you can imagine based on what you just said is also an option. Like almost every permutation. Like how are they interacting with each other? How are they making each other worse? How are they confusing each other? Because you can have anxiety disorders in elementary school. I mean, that is when most anxiety disorders, the first win, like the wave of them going up is then. And you think about all the anxiety you have. 

 I got a friend of mine who’s got infants. And it’s fun to see like as they’re developing, when they go through normal anxiety, that that is a thing that they’re going to pass. And then there’s other things where, at some point, we’re like, actually, now we’re saying this is developmentally inappropriate, which means, nope, we were supposed to have graduated from this and it’s still around. 

 And so, one of the earlier ways that psychiatric conditions were conceptualized, and it’s still a useful way to conceptualize them, is the normal behavior version of it versus the non-normal behavior version of it. And again, I hate non-normal, I don’t want to pathologize people, but non-normal being like, this is causing problems for you. And if you think about it from an evolutionary point of view, all of these conditions have pretty clear evolutionary bases of how they would be beneficial. Anxiety is going to save your ass, okay? Properly applied anxiety, it’ll save your tribe. You want someone who’s anxious, who’s going to be like, “We do not have enough from this winter.” An ADHD person was like, “It’ll be fine. I’m just going to go find something else.” And you’re like, “No.” And then when that winter’s really bad and you save that little bit of extra food, that 30% that the anxious person pushed for, maybe you didn’t eat all 30% of it, but you know what, it probably benefited you and it might’ve actually made the whole tribe survive or more people survive or better health condition. So, it’s approving everyone’s outcomes. 

 The ADHD individual, you get them excited about something—gone. They’re going to destroy it. They’re going to find all the berries. They’re going to find all the new places. They’re going to find all the new deer. They’re going to run around and explore. It’s great. Great, great, great. 

 Depression is like hibernation. And if you look at hibernation in a mammal, like what happens, there’s a lot of overlaps. Lower energy, maybe you store up some food for the winter. It’s related to the seasons. You’re in California, right? This is not a problem you have, but for those of us in New York, where we have seasonality, seasonal depression is a thing. It’s very much a thing. It’s very noticeable, and it’s packed on top of these conditions everyone else is having.

 But the idea is that the hibernation or the pullback is like something happens to you that upsets you, which is the psychosocial event that’s kicking you in the face that might set off your depression. That’s why people always say, “Oh, depressions just don’t come out of nowhere. This biochemical thing isn’t true.” What they’re saying is something has to happen to start to kick off the depression, but that’s not enough. It’s that you then can’t recover from it. 

 And so, a normal version of it is that you get knocked out and you spend a week or two, you think about it. Rumination is a part of depression for many people. You reevaluate, and you say, “You know, I got kicked in the face when I did that. That was not a good plan for me. I need a new plan. I either need to do something different or I need to tackle that problem differently.” And so, that would be the adaptive version of a depressive experience. Whereas the non-adaptive version is like, you get stuck in that and you can’t get out.

 Kimberley: Or you avoid.

 Ryan: The avoiding doing anything about it, and then that makes it worse. So, you started withdrawing. I mean, that’s the worst thing you can do. This is a message to everyone out there. The worst thing that you can do is withdraw from society for any period of time. Look, I’m not saying you can’t have a mental health day, but systematic withdrawal, which most of us don’t even realize is happening, is going to make you worse because the best treatment for every mental health condition is community. It is really. All of them. All of them, including schizophrenia. 

 I used to work in Atlanta. I did my residency. There’d be these poor guys that have a psychotic disorder. They hear voices. The kinds of people that, here in New York City, are homeless, they’re not homeless there. Everyone just knows that Johnny’s just a little weird and his mom lives down the street. And if we find Johnny just in the trash can or doing something strange, or just roving, we know he’s fine, and someone just takes him back to his mom’s house and checks on him. Because there’s a community that takes care of him, even though he’s actually quite ill from our point of view. But when you put him in an environment where that community is not as strong, like a city, it does worse, which is why mental health conditions are much higher rates in urban areas. Probably why psychiatry and mental health in general is such a central thing in New York City.

TREATMENT FOR ADHD vs. ANXIETY

 Kimberley: Yeah. Okay, let’s talk quickly about treatment for ADHD. We’re here always talking about the treatment for anxiety, but what would the research and what’s evidence-based for ADHD if someone were to get that clinical diagnosis?

 Ryan: So, you want to think about ADHD as a thing that we’re going to try to frame for that person as much as how is it an asset, because it historically has made people feel bad about themselves. And so, there are positive aspects to it, like the hyper focus and excitability, and interest in things. And so, trying to channel into that and then thinking about what their deficits are. So, they’re functional deficits. If you’re talking adult population, functional deficits are going to be usually around executive functioning and organization planning. Imagine if you’re like a parent of small children and you have untreated ADHD, you’re going to be in crazy fight-or-flight mode all the time because there’s so many things to keep track of. You have to keep track of your wife and their life.

Kimberley: I see these moms. My heart goes out to them.

Ryan: And they’re probably anxious. And the anxiety is probably protecting them a little bit. Because what is the anxiety doing? You think about things over and over and over again, and you double check them. You know what that’s not a bad idea for? Someone who’s not detail-oriented, who’s an ADHD person, who forgets things, and he gets disorganized. So, there’s this thing where you’re like, “Okay, there may actually be a balance going on. Can we make the balance a little bit better?” So, how do you organize yourself? 

MEDICATIONS FOR ADHD

Right now, there’s a stimulant shortage. Stimulants are the most effective medication for reducing ADHD symptoms. They are the most effective biological intervention we have to reduce the impact of probably any psychiatric condition, period. They are incredibly effective, like 80, 90% resolution of symptoms, which is great. I mean, that’s great. That’s great news. But you also want to be integrating some lifestyle changes and skills alongside of that. So, how do you organize yourself better? I mean, that’s like a whole talk, but like lists, prioritizing lists, taking tasks, breaking them down into smaller and smaller pieces. Where do you start? What’s the first step? Chipping away. You know what? If you only go one mile a day for 30 days, you go 30 miles. That’s still really far. I know you would have gone 30 miles that day, especially if you have ADHD, but you’re still getting somewhere. 

And so, that kind of prioritization is really, really important. And so, you can create that on your own. There are CBT-based resources and things to try to help with that. There are ADHD coaches that try to help with that. It’s consistency and commitment around that. So, how do you structure your life for yourself? That poor PhD candidate really needs to structure their life because there is no structure to their life. 

The other things we want to think about with that, I mean, really good sleep, physical exercise. People with ADHD, we see on FMRI scans when you scan someone’s brain, there’s less density of dopamine receptors, less dopamine activity. You want to get that dopamine up. That’s what the medications are doing, is predominantly raising the dopamine. So, physical activity, aerobic exercise, in particular, is going to do that. Get that in every day, and look, it’s good for you. It’s good for you. There is no better treatment for every condition in the world other than exercise, particularly aerobic. It basically is good for everything. If you just had surgery, we still want you to get out and walk around. Really quickly, that actually improves your outcome as fast as possible.

So, those are the things I like people to start with if they can do that, depending on the severity of what’s going on, the impact, what other things have already been tried. Stimulant medications or non-stimulant medications like Wellbutrin, Strattera, Clonidine are also pretty effective. Methylphenidate products, which is what Ritalin is. Adderall products mixed in amphetamine salts, Vyvanse, these are very effective medications for it. There’s a massive shortage of these medications that people are constantly talking about, and is really problematic and does not appear to have an endpoint because the DEA doesn’t seem ready to raise the amount that they allow to be made because they are still recovering from the opioid crisis, which is ongoing. And so, they’re worried about that. Really, they want to be very thoughtful about this. These medications have a very low-risk potential for misuse. In fact, people with ADHD, they appear to reduce the risk of developing a substance use disorder. It’s the most common thing that people worry about. So, treatment actually reduces that. 

That said, the worst -- I mean, I don’t want to say the worst thing. I mean, people hate me. The really not great way to get psychiatric treatment is to show up to someone once and then intermittently meet with them where they write a prescription for a medication for you that’s supposed to help you, and stimulant medications are included on that. So, that’s probably why I didn’t lead with that, even though there’s actually more science to support them, is that by themselves, it’s really going to limit how much help you’re going to get.

Kimberley: Can you share why?

Ryan: Because you need to understand your condition, because you need to spend time with your clinician learning about your condition and understanding how it’s affecting your life, and understanding how the medication is actually meant to be a tool. It should be like wearing glasses. It doesn’t do the work for you. It doesn’t solve all your problems, but it’s easier to read when you put your glasses on than without it. It supports you. You still need to figure out how to get these things done. It lowers the activation energy associated with it. But you also want to monitor it. You can’t take these medications 24 hours a day and just be ready to go and work, which is things that people have tried. It doesn’t work because you need to sleep, because you will die. They’ve tried this. We know that you will literally die, like not sleeping. And in the interim, you are damaging yourself significantly. So, taking it and timing it in an appropriate way, still getting sufficient sleep, prioritizing other things—they are like a piece of a puzzle, and they are a really powerful piece. But you really don’t want that to be the only thing driving your decision-making, or that be what the interaction is really about. And by the way, the same thing is true for all psychiatric medications.

Kimberley: I was going to say that’s what we know about OCD and anxiety disorders too. Medication alone is not going to cut you across the line.

 Ryan: And for most people, therapy alone is also not going to cut the line. You have to have a mild case for therapy alone to be okay. And I can trouble for that statement. But the other thing is lifestyle. What lifestyle changes can I make? And those together, all three, are going to mean that you get better faster, you get more better than you would have, you’re more likely to stay better. And they start to interact with each other in a good way, where you get this synergistic effect of ripples of good things happening to you and personal growth. You look back, and you’re like, “Geez, I’m on version 3.0 of me. I didn’t know that there was a new, refined personal growth version of me that could actually function much better. I didn’t actually believe that.”

DOES ADHD IMPACT SELF-ESTEEM?

 Kimberley: Well, especially you talked about this impact to self-esteem too. So, if you’re getting the correct treatment and now you’re improving, as you go, you’re like, “Okay, I’m actually smart,” or “I’m actually competent,” or “I’m actually creative. I had no idea.” 

 Ryan: Yes. “I’m not stupid.” Lots of people with ADHD think they’re stupid. 

 Kimberley: Yeah. So, that’s really cool. One question I have that’s just in my mind is, does --

 Ryan: And that should be part of your treatment, is the working through. That was essentially a complex trauma. It’s the complex trauma of having this condition that may not have been treated that made you think that you were an idiot because you were being shoved into a situation that you did not know how to deal with because your ADHD evolved to be an advantage for you as a hunter-gatherer for the hundreds of thousands of years that we had that, and that modern world is not very compliant for. It doesn’t experience you as fitting into it well. And then you feel bad about yourself.

ADHD IN MALES vs. FEMALES

 Kimberley: Right. You’re the class clown, or you’re the class fool, or the dumb girl, or whatever. Now, my last question, just for my sake of curiosity, is: does ADHD look different between genders?

 Ryan: This is an area of significant research. So, historically, the party line has been that ADHD is significantly more common in boys and girls. And the epidemiology, the numbers, the prevalence have always supported that. Like 3 to 1, 2 to 1, like a much more, much more common. Refining of that idea has come up with a couple of thoughts. One, for whatever reason, I don’t know how much of this is genetic. I have no idea how much of this is environmental, sociological. All other things being equal, after a certain young age, girls just always seem to be ahead of boys in their development. I mean, talk to any parent that’s had a lot of kids, and they’ll tell you that they’re like, “I don’t know why the girls are always maturing faster.” So, that’s a bias that is going to always make at any given point. The boys look worse because their brains are not developed. So, they’re going to be -- remember that immature younger thing? They’re going to be immature and younger. And so at any given marker is that.

 The other thing that’s come up is that the hyperactivity seems to be something we see a lot more in males than in females. That’s another thing. And versus inattentiveness, which you see in both and is usually the predominant symptom. And the kid who gets noticed is the little boy who’s like -- I mean, not that you could do this in today’s world, but has scissors and is about to cut a kid’s cord. I’m trying to make a silly imagery. That kid’s getting a phone call. No one didn’t notice that. The whole class called that. Whereas like daydreaming, I’m not really listening—this is a more passive experience of ADHD. And they’re not disrupting the room. Forget about the gender thing. Just that presentation is also less noticed. 

 So, I think the answer is the symptomology presentation is a little different. It tends to be predominantly hyperactive. Are the rates different? Yes, they’re probably not as wide of a difference as we think they are, because we’re probably missing a good number of girls. Are we missing enough girls to make it 50/50? I don’t know. That would be a lot of -- it’s a big gap. It’s not close. It’s a pretty big gap. Maybe we’re certainly missing some. 

 And then the other aspect of it is particularly post-puberty. Even before puberty, there’s hormonal changes going on. And these hormones, particularly testosterone, which is present in everyone, we think about it as a male thing, but it’s really just like a balance thing. You have significant amounts of both. It affects a number of things, and attention is one of them. So, there’s so many complexing factors to it. That’s why I said, it’s something we’re still trying to sort out. 

 One of the things that’s really interesting that goes back to the hormone thing is that if you talk to young women— so postmenstrual, they’ve gone through puberty—they will tell you over and over again that their symptomology, just like we have mood symptoms tend to be worse during that time period of when you’re ovulating, the ADHD symptoms will be worse as well. And so, there’s increasing evidence that if you’re on ADHD medication and you have ADHD, which again, we’re making lots of presumptions here, go get that confirmed, guys. But if you’re on that time period just leading up to ovulation a little bit after, you may actually need a higher dose of your medication to get the same effect. That there’s something about the way progesterone and whatever is changing that it affects functionally your attention and your experience of your symptomatology. 

 Kimberley: Interesting. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Is there anything you feel like we’ve missed or a point you really want to make for the folks who are listening who are trying to really untangle, like you said, that imagery of untangle, anxiety, ADHD, all of the depression, self-esteem?

 Ryan: This is like a sidebar that’s related. So, one of my other areas of interest is cannabis. And here in New York, we’ve had a lot going on with cannabis. And there’s a lot of science going on around, can cannabis be used to treat things, particularly psychiatric disorders? And I know that a lot of people are interested in that.

 One of the things that I’ve been really trying to caution people around with it is that the original thing that I was probably taught in the ‘90s about cannabis, marijuana being like this incredibly unsafe thing, is not true. But the narrative that it’s totally fine and benign is also not true. And that it is probably going to be effective in reducing anxiety acutely, and it will probably be effective in maybe even improving your mood. And some people with ADHD even think it improves their attention by calming their mind. I am very cautious about people starting to use that as part of their treatment plan. And I can tell you why.

 Kimberley: Because you did say there’s an increase in substance use.

 Ryan: The problem is that it’s not rolled out in a way that reflects an appropriate medical treatment. So, if you do it recreationally, obviously, it’s basically like alcohol. You just get what you want, and you decide what you want. If you do it medically, depending on the state, as a general rule, you just get a medical card and then you decide what you’re going to do, which just seems crazy to me. I mean, you don’t do that. You don’t send people home with an unlimited amount of something that is mind-altering and tell them to use as much as they need. And the potencies, the strength of it has gotten stronger and stronger. 

 And so, I really caution people around this because when you use it regularly, what ends up happening is you get this downregulation, particularly daily use. You get this downregulation of your receptors, your cannabinoid receptors. We all have cannabinoid receptors. And you have fewer and fewer of them. And because you have so much cannabinoid in your system because you’re getting high that your body says, “I don’t need these receptors.” So then when you don’t get high, those cannabinoid receptors that modulate serotonin, dopamine—so functionally, your attention, your mood, your anxiety level—there’s none of them left because they’ve been getting bound like crazy to this super strong thing. And you’re making almost none yourself, so you’re going to feel awful. You’re going to feel awful. And it’s not dosed in any kind of appropriate way. We’re not giving people guidance on this. 

 So, I really caution people when they’re utilizing this, which the reality is that a lot of people are, that they be thoughtful about that and thoughtful about the frequency that they’re using and the amounts that they’re using, and if they’re at a point where they’re really trying to self-medicate themselves, because that can really get out of control for people. They can get really out of control. And I think it’s unfortunate that we don’t have a better system to help people with that. That is more like the evaluation of an FDA-approved medication or something like that has a system through it. 

 So, I just wanted to add that because I know this is something that a lot of people are thinking about. And I think it can be hard to get really good science information on since there’s a big movement around making this change. When we’re doing a big movement around pushing for a change, we don’t want to talk about the reasons that the change might be a little problematic, and therefore slow the change down. So, we forget about that. And I think for the general public, it’s important to remember that.

 Kimberley: Yeah, I’m so grateful that you did bring that up. Thank you. Where can our listeners learn more about you or be in touch with you?

 Ryan: So, if they want to learn more about my practice, my clinical practice, integrativepsych -- no, integrative-psych.org. We changed. We wrote .nyc. There we go. And then if you want to learn about my science and my lab and our research, which we also love, if you just go to Sultan (my last name) lab.org, it redirects to my Columbia page, and then you can see all about that and send some positive vibes to my poor research assistants that work so hard. 

 Kimberley: Wonderful. I’m so grateful for you to be here. Really, I am. And just so happy that you’re here. So much more knowledgeable about something that I am not. And so, I’m so grateful that you’re here to bring some clarity to this conversation, and hopefully for people to really now go and get a correct assessment to define what’s going on for them.

 Ryan: Yeah, I hope everyone is able to digest all this. I said a lot. And can hopefully make better decisions for themselves for that. Thank you so much.

 Kimberley: Thank you.

Exploring the relationship between faith and recovery, especially when it comes to managing Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), reveals a complex but fascinating landscape. It's like looking at two sides of the same coin, where faith can either be a source of immense support or a challenging factor in one’s healing journey.

On one hand, faith can act like a sturdy anchor or a comforting presence, offering hope and a sense of purpose that's invaluable for many people working through OCD. This aspect of faith is not just about religious practices; it's deeply personal, providing a framework that can help individuals make sense of their struggles and find a pathway towards recovery. The sense of community and belonging that often comes with faith can also play a crucial role in supporting someone through their healing process.

However, it's not always straightforward. Faith can get tangled up with the symptoms of OCD, leading to situations where religious beliefs and practices become intertwined with the compulsions and obsessions that characterize the disorder. This is where faith can start to feel like a double-edged sword, especially in cases of scrupulosity, where religious or moral obligations become sources of intense anxiety and compulsion.

The conversation around integrating faith into recovery is a delicate one. It emphasizes the need for a personalized approach, recognizing the unique ways in which faith intersects with an individual's experience of OCD. This might involve collaborating with religious leaders, incorporating spiritual practices into therapy, or navigating the complex ways in which faith influences both the symptoms of OCD and the recovery process.

Moreover, this discussion sheds light on a broader conversation about the intersection of psychology and spirituality. It acknowledges the historical tensions between these areas, while also pointing towards a growing interest in understanding how they can complement each other in the context of mental health treatment.

In essence, the relationship between faith and recovery from OCD highlights the importance of a compassionate and holistic approach. It's about finding ways to respect and integrate an individual's spiritual beliefs into their treatment, ensuring that the journey towards healing is as supportive and effective as possible. This balance is key to harnessing the positive aspects of faith, while also navigating its challenges with care and understanding.

Justin K. Hughes, MA, LPC, owner of Dallas Counseling, PLLC, is a clinician and writer, passionate about helping those impacted by OCD and Anxiety Disorders. He serves on the IOCDF's OCD & Faith Task Force and is the Dallas Ambassador for OCD Texas. Working with a diversity of clients, he also is dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and mental health. A sought-after writer and speaker, he is currently mid-way through writing his first workbook on evidence-based care of OCD for Christians. He is seeking a collaborative agent who will help secure the best publishing house to help those most in need. Check out www.justinkhughes.com to stay in the loop and get free guides & handouts!

Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. Today, we’re talking about faith and its place in recovery. Does faith help your recovery? Does it hinder your recovery? And all the things in between. 

Today, we have Justin Hughes. Justin is the owner of Dallas Counseling and is a clinician and writer. He’s passionate about helping those who are impacted by OCD. He is the Dallas ambassador for OCD Texas and serves on the IOCDF’s OCD and Faith Task Force, working with a diversity of clients. He’s also dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and OCD, most commonly Christians. But today, we’re here to talk about faith in general. Welcome, Justin.

Justin: Kimberley Jayne Quinlan, howdy.

Kimberley: You said howdy just perfectly from your Texas state. 

Justin: Absolutely.

Kimberley: Okay. This is a huge topic. And just for those who are listening, we tried to record this once before, we were just saying, but we had tech issues. And I’m so glad we did because I have thought about this so much since, and I feel like evolved a little since then too. 

So, we’re here to talk about how to use faith in recovery and/or is it helpful for some people, and talk about the way that it is helpful and for some not. Can you share a little bit about your background on why this is an important topic for you?

Justin: Absolutely. So, first of all, as a man of faith, I’m a Christian. I went to a Christian college, got my degree in Psychology, and very much desired to interweave studies between psychology and theology. So, I went to a seminary. A lot of people hear that, and they’re like, “Did you become a priest?” No, it was a counseling program at a seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. I came here and then found my wife, and I stayed in Dallas. 

And it’s been important to me from a personal faith standpoint. And I love the faith integration in treatment and exploring that with clients. And of course -- or maybe I shouldn’t say of course, but it’s going to be a lot of Christians, but I work with a lot of different faith backgrounds. And there are some really important conversations happening in the broader world of treatment about faith integration and its place. And we’re going to get into all those things and hopefully some of the history and psychology’s relationship to faith, which has not been the greatest at different points.

For me personally, faith isn’t just an exercise. It’s not something that I just add on to make my day better. In fact, a lot of times, faith requires me to do way more difficult things than I want to do, but it’s a belief in the ultimate object of my faith in God and Christ as a Christian. I naturally come across a lot of people who not only identify that as important but find it as very essential to their treatment. And let’s get into that, the folks that find it essential, the people who find it very much not, and the people who don’t. But that’s just a little bit about me and why I find this so important.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s interesting because I was raised Episcopalian. I don’t really practice a lot of that anymore for no reason except, I don’t know, if I’m going to be really honest. 

Justin: So honest. I love that. 

Kimberley: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it a lot because I had a positive experience. Sometimes I long for it, but for reasons I don’t know. Again, I’m just still on that journey, figuring that piece out and exploring that. 

Where I see clients is usually on the end of their coming to me as a client, saying, “I’m a believer, but it’s all gotten messed up and mushed up and intertwined.” And I’m my job. I think of my job as helping them untangle it.

Justin: Yeah.

Kimberley: Not by me giving my own personal opinion either, but just letting them untangle it. How might you see that? Are you seeing that also? And what is the process of that untangling, if we were to use that word?

Justin: It’s so broad and varied. So, I would imagine that just like with clients that I work with and folks that come to conferences and that I talk with, the listeners in your audience, hi listeners, are going to have a broad experience of views, and it’s so functional. So, I want people to hear right away that I don’t think that there’s just a cookie-cutter approach. There can’t be with this. And whether we’re treating OCD, anxiety disorders, or depression, or eating disorders, or BFRVs, fill in the blank, there are obviously evidence-based treatments which are effective for most, but even those can’t be a cookie cutter when it comes down to exactly what a person needs to do or what is required of them in recovery. 

So, yes, let me just state this upfront for the folks that might be unduly nervous at this point. First of all, the faith piece, religious piece, does not have to enter into treatments for a lot of people to get the job done. In fact, actually, for a lot of people, it was much more healing for them, including many of my clients. I have friends and family members that sometimes look at me as scant. So like, “Wait, you went to seminary, and sometimes you don’t talk about God at all.” And it’s like, “Yeah, sometimes we’re just doing evidence-based treatment, and that is that.” And as an evidence-based practitioner, that’s important to me. 

So, when people come in, I want to work with what their goals are, their values. And a lot of people have found themselves, for any number of reasons, stuck, maybe compulsions or obsessive thoughts or whatever, are stuck in all things belief, religion, or faith or whatever else. And sometimes actually, the most healing thing for them to do is sometimes get in, get out, do the job clinically, walk away, experience freedom, and then grow and develop personally. 

But then I’ve also discovered that there’s this other side that some people do not find a breakthrough. Some people stay stuck. And maybe these are the people that hit the stats that we see in research of 20% or so just turn down things like ERP, (exposure and response prevention) with OCD when they’re offered. And then another 20 to 30% drop out. And we have great studies that tell us that most people who stick with it get a lot of benefits, but there’s all the other folks that didn’t. And sometimes it’s because people -- no offense, you all, but sometimes people just don’t want to put in the work and discipline. 

However, we can’t minimize it to that. Sometimes it’s truly people that are willing to show up, and there’s a complex layer of things. And the cookie-cutter approach is not going to work for them. Maybe they have the intersection of complex health issues, intersection of trauma, intersection of even just family of origin things where life is really difficult, or even just right now, a loneliness epidemic that’s happening in the world. 

And by the way, I’m a huge believer in the evidence base. There’s a lot in the evidence base that guides us. And as I’m talking today, I want to be really clear that when I work with folks, even when we get into the spiritual, I’m working with the evidence base. Yeah, there’s things that there’s no specific protocol for, but a lot of folks, I think, can hopefully be encouraged that there’s a strong research base to the benefits and the use and the application and also the care of practicing various spiritual practices through treatments. 

So, to come back to the original question, it depends so much. It’s like if somebody asked me a question like, “Hey, Justin. Okay, so as a therapist, do you think that --” and I get these questions all the time, “Is it okay for me to...? Like, I am afraid of this.” I got this question at one point. Somebody was curious if I thought it was okay for them to travel to another city. And it’s like, it depends. It’s almost always an “it depends.” 

So, that’s where I’m going to leave it, that nice, squeaky place that we all just want a dang answer, but the reality is, it is going to massively depend on the person and where they are, and what their needs are.

Kimberley: Yeah, I mean, and I’ll speak to it too, sometimes I’ve seen a client. Let’s give a few examples of a client with OCD. The OCD has attacked their faith and made it very superstitious or very fear-based instead of faith-based. And I think they come in with that, “Everything’s so messy and it used to make so much sense, and now it doesn’t.” 

For eating disorders, I’ve had a lot of clients who will have a faith component where there are certain religions that have ways in which you prepare foods and things, and then that has become very sticky and hard for them. The eating disorder gets involved with that as well. 

And let me think more just from a general standpoint, and I’ll use me as an example, as just like a generally anxious person. I remember this really wonderful time, I’ll tell you a funny story, when my daughter was like five, out of nowhere, she insisted that we go to every church. Like she wanted to go to a Christian and a Catholic and Jewish temple and Muslim and Buddhist. She wanted to try all of them, and we were like, “Great, let’s go and do it.” And I could see how my anxious brain would go black and white on everything they said. So, if they said something really beautiful, my brain would get very perfectionistic about that and have a little tantrum. I think it would be like, “But I can’t do it that perfect,” and I would get freaked out, but also be able to catch myself. So, I think that it’s important to recognize how the disorder can get mixed up in that.

Justin: Yeah, absolutely.

Kimberley: Right? Let’s now flip, unless you have something you want to add, to how has faith helped people in their recovery, and what does that look like for you as a clinician, for the client, for their journey?

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on the clinical side of things, the starting place is always going to be the assessments and diagnosis and treatment plan. And then the ethics of it too is going to be working with the person where they are and their beliefs and not forcing anything, of course. And so folks are naturally -- I get it, I respect it. I would be nervous of somebody of a different belief background that’s overt about things. Some people come in, they look at the wall, they see Dallas Theological Seminary, they’ve studied a few things in advance. So, yeah, the starting places, sitting down, honest, building rapport, trust, assessing, diagnosing.

So, for the folks where the faith piece is significant, I’ll put it into two categories. So, one is sometimes we have to talk about aspects of faith just from a pure assessment sample. So, a common example of that is scrupulosity in OCD. So, I have worked with even a person on the, believe it or not, Faith and OCD Task Force who is atheist. And so, why in the world do we need to talk about faith? Why is that person even on the Faith and OCD Task Force? Well, they’re representing a diversity of views and opinions on the role of faith and OCD. 

Kimberley: Love it.

Justin: And it’s so interesting to look at it at a base level with something like OCD. But frankly, a lot of mental disorders or even just challenges in life, if clinicians, one, aren’t asking questions about, hey, do you have any religious views, background, even just in your background? Do you have spiritual practices that are important to you? We’re missing a massive component. And here’s the research piece. We know from the research that, actually, a majority of people find things of faith or spirituality important, and secondarily, that a majority of people would like to be able to talk about those things in therapy. Straight-up research. So, a couple of articles that I wrote for the IOCDF on this reference this research. So, it is evidence-based to talk about this. 

And then when we get into these sticky areas of obsessions and anxiety disorders, of course, it’s going to poke on philosophy, worldview, spirituality. And so, it could be even outside of scrupulosity, beliefs that at first it just looks like we need some good shame reduction exercises, self-compassion, and so forth, but we discover that, oh, the person struggling with contamination OCD has a lot of deeper beliefs that they think that somehow, they are flawed because they’re struggling. They’re not a good enough, fill in the blank, Christian. They’re not good enough. Because if so, surely God would break through in a bigger way. If so... Wouldn’t these promises that I’m told in scriptures actually become true? 

And the cool thing is, there’s a richness in the theology that helps us understand the nuance there, and it’s not that simple. But if we miss that component, and it’s essential for treatment, it’s not just like, “Oh, I feel bad about myself. And yeah, sometimes I’m critical with myself.” And if we don’t go at that level of core fear, or core distress, or core belief, oftentimes we’re missing really a central part of the treatment, which we talk about in any other domain. People just get nervous sometimes, thinking about spirituality. It’s like politics and religion, right? Nobody talks about those things. Well, if we’re having deeper conversations, we usually are. And as clinicians, those of you that are listening to the podcast as clinicians, you know that you have to work with people of different political leanings, people of different faith leanings, people who actually live in California versus [inaudible]. I love California. 

So, the first category is, if we’re doing good clinical work, we’re going to be asking questions because it matters to most people. If we don’t, we’re missing a huge piece. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad therapist, but hey, start asking some questions if you’re not, at a minimum. 

But then there’s the second piece that most people actually want to know, and most people have some aspects of practice or integration, or even the most religion church-averse type of person will have any number of things come up such as, “Yeah, I pray occasionally,” or “Yeah, I do this grounding exercise that puts me in touch with the universe or creation or whatever it is.” 

So, there’s the second category of when it is important to a person because it’s part of the bigger picture of growth, it’s part of the bigger picture of breaking free from challenges that they have, and, frankly, finding meaning. And I’ll just make one philosophical comment here, because I’m a total nerd. Psychology can never be a worldview. Psychology tells us what. Psychology is a subset of science. And by worldview, I mean a collective set of beliefs, guidance, direction about how life should be lived. We can only say, “Hey, when you do this, you tend to feel this way, or you tend to do these behaviors more or do these behaviors less.” At the end of the day, we have to make interpretations and judgments about right and wrong, how to live life, the best way to live life. These are in the realm of interpretation. 

So, surprise, surprise, we’re in the realm of at least philosophy, but we very quickly get into theology. And so back to the piece that most people care about it, most people have some sort of spiritual practice that they’ll resonate with and connect with. And then most people actually want to integrate a little bit into therapy. And then some people find that it is essential. They haven’t been able to find any lasting freedom outside of going deeper into a bigger purpose, `bigger meaning.

Kimberley: You said a couple of things that really rang true for me because I really want to highlight here, I’m on the walk here as well as a client. And I love having these conversations with clients, not about me, about them, but them when they don’t have a spiritual practice, longing for one. I’ve had countless clients say, “I just wish I believed.” And I think what sometimes they’re looking for is a motivator. I have some clients who have a deep faith, and their North Star is that religion. Their North Star is following the word of that religion or the outcome of it, whether it be to go to heaven or whatever, afterlife or whatever. They believe like that’s the North Star. That’s what determines every part of their treatment. Like, “Why are we doing this exposure today?” “Because this is my North Star. I know where I’m heading. I know what the goal is.” And then I have those clients who are like, “I need a North Star. I don’t have one. I don’t get the point.” And I think that is where faith is so beautiful in recovery. 

When I witness my clients who are going to do the scary thing, they don’t want to do it, but they’re so committed to this North Star, whatever it might be. And maybe there’s a better language than a North Star, again, whatever that is for that person. Like, “I’m walking towards the light of whatever that religion is.” I feel, if I’m going to be honest, envious of that. And I totally get that some people do too. 

What would you say to a client who is longing for something like that? Maybe they have spiritual trauma in some respects or they’ve had bad experiences, or they’re just unsure. What would you say to them?

Justin: Yeah, that’s really great. And first of all, I just want to really say that it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to talk as you do. And one of the ways that I admire you, KQ, is through your ability to have these vulnerable conversations. So not just like the platform of expert, because at the end of the day, we’re all just people and on a journey for sure. And so thanks for being honest with that. 

And I’m on a journey as well. And certainly, I realized jumping on podcasts, these things put us in the expert role and we speak at conferences and things like that. But I think that’s a bit of the answer right there, is that being where we are to start with is so huge. And I mean, you’re so good with the steps to take around acceptance and compassion. That’s it. It’s like fear presses towards a thousand different possibilities, and none of them come true exactly that way. And it can lead towards people missing a lot of personal growth stuff, spiritual growth stuff. And one of those things, I think, that we do is we sit with that.

Clinically, I’m going to assess, ask a lot of questions, Socratic questions as a subset of the cognitive therapy side of doing that. Let me just come back to the simplicity. I think we get there. We sit in it for a second. And otherwise, we miss it. We’re rushing to preconceived solutions or answers, but we’re saying that we don’t necessarily have an answer for that. So, what if we take some time to actually notice it and to be with that and to actually label it and be like, “I’m not sure. I’m yearning. I’m envious. I’m wanting something, but I don’t know. So, put me in, coach.” I’ll sit with people. That’s really the first thing. 

Kimberley: Yeah. What I have practiced, and I’ve encouraged clients is also being curious, like trying things out if that lines up with their values, going to a service, reading a book, listening to a podcast, and just trying it on. For me, it’s also interesting with clients, is if they’re yearning for it, try it on and observe what shows up. Is it that black-and-white thinking or perfectionism? Is it your obsessions getting involved? Is it that it just doesn’t feel good in your body? And so forth. Again, just be where you are and take it slow, I think. 

I have a few other areas I want you to look at in terms of giving me your professional thoughts. If somebody wants to incorporate faith into their treatment, what can that look like? Can it look like praying together? What does that look like?

Justin: You’re asking all the good questions. Yeah, absolutely. And also, one other thing to reference, I know you’re friends with Shala Nicely and Jeff Bell. And so they wrote a book. And for those that are on that, I would say, more “I’m seeking journey,” it’s When in Doubt, Make Belief: An OCD-Inspired Approach to Living with Uncertainty. And I love Shala and Jeff. They’re so great, and they’ve been really pivotal people in my own life, not just as friends, but just as personal growth too. And so, that’s an example specifically where Shala talks about the throes of her suffering. Is Fred in the Refrigerator? is her basically autobiography that goes into the clinical piece too, where at the end of the day, there was a bit of a pragmatic experience that she couldn’t -- the universe being against her, she basically always had that view and she needed something that was different. And so she got there, I think. I hope I’m reflecting her sentence as well, but got there pragmatically. “The universe is friendly” is something that she said. 

Now, I just know that my Christian brothers and sisters, if they’re listening to this, they’re probably like, “What the heck is Justin talking about? The universe is friendly?” Because that’s very, very different from the language that we’ve used, but it’s just such a great example to me of just one step at a time, a person on the journey. They’re looking at those things and assessing, okay, what is obsessive, what is compulsive, what is this thing that I can believe in and I ultimately do, but maybe I’m not. I don’t want to or I’m not ready, or it doesn’t make sense to me to make a jump into an organized religious plea for whatever else. And so, how does it look for clients? 

So in short, do I pray with clients? Yeah, absolutely. Do I open up the Bible? Yes, absolutely. Actually, it is a minority of sessions, which again, on my more conservative friends and family side of things are almost shocked and scratching their heads. Like, “You’re a Christian, you do counseling, and you’re not doing that.” We’re a bunch of weirdos. We’re in that realm of the inter-Christian circle in a good sense. We believe so deeply that God loves us and God has interceded and does intercede, and interacts with our present, not just a historical event here and there, and we’re left on our own, the deistic watchmaker, to use a philosophical reference there. That because we believe that so strongly, we’re not going to take no for an answer in the sense of the deeper growth and deeper faith. 

So, sometimes that backfires though, especially getting into the superstitious, like, “Well, God’s got to be in everything, and I’m not feeling it,” as opposed to like, “Okay. Is it possible that I could just have a brain that gives me some pretty nasty thoughts sometimes and it doesn’t necessarily reflect that I’m in a bad state, that I can be curious about what a person getting mangled by a car might look like mentally and then be terrified by that?” And then like, “Thanks, brain, for giving me the imagination. Glad I can think through accidents so I can maybe be a safer driver.” Yeah, absolutely. But I will say that’s one of those sticky points a lot of times for Christians because we believe that thoughts matter and beliefs matter. And so there can be this overinterpretation of everything is always something really big and serious about my status and my heart, and something that’s really big and serious about spiritual things or demonic stuff, or fill in the blank. 

So, the faith integration piece, I do carefully, but I’m not scared of it. I’ve done it so often. It’s through a lot of assessments. It has to be from the standpoint of the client’s wanting that. Usually, the client is asking me specifically, like, “Hey, would you pray at the end of the session?” Sure, absolutely, in most cases. 

And this, such a deep topic. I’m fully aware that there are those in the camp that view faith integration as completely antithetical to what needs to happen in treatments. And they argue their case, they’re going to argue it really strongly, but the same exists on the other side as well. And I try and work in that realm of, okay, what’s good for the clients? And are there some things that I don’t do? Yeah, but I’m not really asked to do them. 

I’ve had a number of Muslim clients throughout the year. I don’t join in with Ramadan with clients in various practices or fasting with a client, for example. That’s not my faith practice there. But can I walk with the client who is trying to differentiate between the lines of fasting and I had water at this point, and the sun was going down and I thought. And other people were having water, but I’m getting stuck on assessing, like, was it too early, and did I actually violate my commitment, my vow? Did I violate what I was supposed to be doing? 

I can absolutely work with that person, and I need to. I can’t really work with OCD or anxiety disorders if I wanted to turn that person away at the door and be like, “Oh, well, I’m not Muslim, so I’m sorry.” No, we’re going to jump into it and be like, “Okay, so tell me about this thought and then this behavior that came up at this time, and you’re noticing that that’s a little different from your community, that other people are starting to drink water, eat food. And so, you mentioned that it was right at sunset, but what time was that?” “Well, actually, it was like 10:30 p.m. It’s two hours dark.” It’s like, “But I think I saw a glow in the distance.” And it’s like, “Okay, now we’re into a pretty classic OCD realm.” And so the simplest way that I can say that faith integration can be done in therapy is carefully, respectfully, with good assessments.

Kimberley: Do you have them consult with their spiritual leader if you’re stuck on that? And does that involve you speaking with them, them speaking with them, all three of you? What have you done?

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a collaboration that goes in a number of different ways. Most of the time, people can speak with their clergy member or faith leader pretty directly, pretty separately, and that is going to work just fine. I would say in most cases, people don’t need to, especially if I’m working with OCD. A lot of folks usually have a pretty good general sense of, “Okay, I know what my faith community is going to say about this is X, but I’m scared because it feels like it’s on shaky ground, I’m obsessing,” et cetera. 

So, the clarification with the clergy, for instance, or a leader is more from the standpoint of if there’s not a defined value definition practice, and that does come up for sure. So, helping that person to even find who that might be, especially if they’re not a part of that, and/or maybe a good article to read with some limits, like, okay, three articles max. Check out a more conservative view, a more liberal view, a more fill in the blank. 

And then my friend and colleague Alec Pollard up at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute, he’s been on scrupulosity panels with me. He uses this excellent form called the PISA, (Possibly Immoral or Sinful Act). And it’s just a great several-question guide. That or any number of things can be taken to clergyperson, leader in Christian circles a lot of times, like a Bible study or community group. Maybe flesh those things out just a little bit, maybe once, maybe twice max. 

And so, back to how much others are integrated, yeah, it’s a mix and match, anything, everything. For me, with direct conversations with clergy, it’s actually because I’m pretty deep into this realm, I have pretty easy access to a lot of folks, so I don’t really need to so much talk directly or get that person on a release. But a lot of people do, especially if they don’t know that religious belief or faith traditions approach on certain topics. 

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s so wonderful to talk about this with you. 

Justin: Thanks, Kimberley. Same here.

Kimberley: Because I really do feel, I think post-COVID, there’s more conversations with my clients about this. This could be totally just my clients, but I’ve noticed an increased longing, like you said, for that connection, the loneliness pandemic.

Justin: Yeah, that’s statistical. 

Kimberley: Such a need for connection, such a need for community, such a need for that, like what is your North Star? And it can be, even if we haven’t really talked about depression, it can be a really big motivator when you’re severely depressed, right?

Justin: Absolutely. 

Kimberley: And this is where I’m very much like so curious and loving this conversation with my clients right now in terms of, where is it helpful? Where isn’t it helpful? As you said, do you want to use this as a part of your practice here in treatment, in recovery? And what role does it play? I know I had mentioned to you, I’d even asked on Instagram and did a poll, and there were a lot of people saying, “It gave me a community. It immensely helps. It does keep me focused on the goal,” especially if it’s done intentionally without letting fear take over. Is there anything you wanted to add to this conversation before we finish up? 

Justin: Yeah, I guess two things. So, one is you talked about that, and we talked about a couple of those responses before we jumped on to recording. So, in summary, the responses were all across the board, like, “Ooh.” Let me know if I’m summarizing this well, but, “I have to be really careful. That can be really compulsive or not so much. I don’t like to do that. I don’t think it’s necessary.” And then like, yeah, absolutely. This is really integral and really important. Is that a fair summary?

Kimberley: Very much. Yep. 

Justin: Okay. And so, I’m building this talk, Katie O'Dunne and Rabbi Noah Tile, ERP As a Spiritual Practice. We’re giving here at the Faith and OCD Conference in April, if this is out by then. And in my section that I have, I’m covering the best practices of treatments, specifically ERP (exposure and response prevention) for OCD, and clinically, but then also from a faith standpoint, what do we consider with that? And there’s this three-prong separation that I’m making. I’m not claiming a hold on the market with this, but I’m just observing. There’s one category of a person who comes into therapy, and it’s like, yeah, face stuff, whatever. It doesn’t matter, or even almost antagonistic against it. Maybe they’ve been burnt, maybe they’ve been traumatized or abused with faith. Yeah, I get it. So, that first camp is there.

But then there’s also a second camp that people like to add on spiritual practices. They might mix and match, or they might follow a specific system, belief system. And whether it gets into mindfulness or meditation practices or fasting or any number of things, they find that there’s a lot of benefit, but it’s maybe not at the heart of it. 

And then there’s this third prong of folks that it is part and parcel of everything they do. And I work with all three. They come up in different ways. And sometimes people cycle between those different ones as well in treatments in the process.  

Kimberley: I’m glad you said that.

Justin: Yeah. And so, I just thought that was interesting when you pulled folks

that had come up. Really, the second thing, and maybe this is at least my ending points unless we have anything else, you had mentioned to the audience that graciously, we had some tech issues. You all, it wasn’t Kimberley’s tech issues. It was Justin’s tech issues. I spilled coffee on my computer like a week or two prior. It zapped. It’s almost like you’d see in a movie, except it wasn’t sparking. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness.” And it was in a client session. That was a whole funny story in of itself. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness.” It wasted my nice computer that I use for live streaming and all of that. And so I’m using my little budget computer at home. It’s like, “Oh, hopefully it works.” And it just couldn’t. It couldn’t keep up with all the awesomeness that KQ’s spitting out.

And I shared with you, Kimberley, a little bit on the email, something deep really hit me after that. I felt a lot of shame when we tried back and forth for 30 minutes to do it, and my computer kept crashing, basically because it couldn’t stand the bandwidth and whatever else was needed. And one might think it’s just a technical thing, but I’d had some stuff happen earlier that week. I started to play in my church worship band, lead guitar, and there was something that I just wasn’t able to break through, and I was just feeling ashamed of that. And it just really hit me. 

And one of my key domains that I am growing in is my own perfectionism, as a subset of my own anxiety, and perfectionism is all about shame. And I love performance, I love to perform well. I like to say, “Oh, it’s seeking excellence, and it’s seeking the best for other people’s good.” But deep down inside, perfectionism is this shame piece that anything shy of perfect is not good enough, and it just hit me. I felt like trash after that happened. I felt embarrassed. And you were so gracious, “It’s okay, we’ll reschedule.” 

And so, I went for a walk, which I do. Clear my mind, get exercise. And I was just stuck on that. And one of the ways where my Christian walk really came in at that moment was, I started to do some cognitive restructuring. I started to -- for you all who don’t know, it’s looking at the bigger picture and being more realistic with negative thoughts. Like, “Ah, I can’t believe this happened. I failed this,” as opposed to like, “Okay, we’re rescheduling. It’s all right. It actually gave us more time to think about it.” And I didn’t know that then, but I could have said similar things. 

I was doing a bunch of clinical tools that are helpful, but frankly, it wasn’t until I just tapped into the bigger purpose of, one, not controlling the universe. I don’t keep this globe spinning. I barely keep my own life spinning. Two, God loves me. And three, it’s okay. It’s going to work that out. Four, maybe there’s something bigger, deeper going on that I don’t know. And I can’t guarantee that it was for this reason. I’m not going to put that in God’s mouth and say that, “Oh yeah, okay, well, He gave us a couple more weeks to prepare.” I don’t know. I really don’t know. But it helped me to tap into like, “Okay, it’s all right. It’s really all right.” 

And it took me about half a day, frankly. I’m slightly embarrassed to say, “No, I’m not embarrassed to say that as a clinician who works with this stuff. I have full days, I have full weeks. I have longer periods of time where I’m wrestling with this stuff.” And yeah, areas have grown. I’ve improved in my life for sure, but I’m just a hot mess some days. 

Kimberley: But that’s nice to hear too, because I think, again, clients have said it looks so nice to be loved by God all the time. That must be so nice. But it’s not nice. I hate that you went through that. But I think people also need to know that people of faith also have to walk through really tough days and that it isn’t the cure-all, that faith isn’t the cure-all for struggles either. I think that’s helpful for people to know.

Justin: Yeah, that’s right. So, thank you for letting me share a little bit of that. And yeah, the personalized example of why, at least for me, faith is important. If folks come into my office and they say, “Nah, no thanks,” okay, I’m going to try lightly, carefully, or just avoid it altogether if that’s what they want. But oftentimes it’s really at the center of, okay, purpose, meaning, direction, guidance, and okay, you want to do that? I’ll roll up my sleeves, and let’s go. 

Kimberley: Yeah. See, I’m glad that it happened because you got to tell that beautiful story. And without that beautiful story, I would be less happy. So, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. I think I shared with you in an email like I’ve had to get so good at letting people down that I get it. And I love that you have that statement, like God loves me. That is beautiful. That’s like sun on your face right there. I love that you had that moment. 

Justin: Yeah, it comes up so much, so many times. In the Bible and even to -- like I wrote this article on Fear Not. So, the most common exhortation in all of the Christian Bible is fear not. So, one might think like, “Oh yeah, don’t commit adultery,” or “Don’t kill, don’t murder,” or fill in the blank. Not even close. The most common exhortation in all of scriptures is actually fear not, and then love, various manifestations all throughout. I could go on, but I know we’re out of time. 

Kimberley: Well, what I will say is tell people where they can hear about you and even access that if they’re interested. I love to read that article. So, where will people hear about you and learn more about the work you do? Please tell us everything.

Justin: Yeah, sure. And I’ll include some stuff for your show notes that you can send to the things referenced. And then JustinKHughes (J-U-S-T-I-N-K-H-U-G-H-E-S) .com is my base of operations where the contact, my email practice information, my blog is on there. And you can subscribe to my newsletter totally free. Totally, totally free. And I do a bunch of eBooks as well on there that are free. JustinKHughes.com/GetUnstuck to join one of four of the newsletters. 

Other than that, that’s where those announcements come out for different conferences. So, Faith and OCD, if this is out in time in April, but April every year, it’s getting to be pretty big. We’re getting hundreds of people attending. We’re now in our fourth annual IOCDF (International OCD Foundation Conference), local conferences, various live streams. So, anyway, the website is that base, that hub, where you’ll actually see any number of those different announcements. Thanks for asking. 

Kimberley: I’m going to make sure this is out before the conference. Can you tell people where they can go to hear about the conference?

Justin: Yeah. So, IOCDF.org. And then I think it’s /conferences, but you can also type into Google conferences and there’s a series of all sorts of different conferences going on. And this is the one that’s dedicated to OCD and faith concerns. And just when you think that it’s just one specific belief system, then prepare to be surprised because we’ve done a lot of work to have a diverse group of folks, sharing and speaking and covering a lot of things, ranging from having faith-specific or non-faith nuns, support groups. So, there are literally support groups if you’re an atheist and you have OCD, and that’s actually an important part of where you are in your journey. But for Christians, for Muslims, for Jewish, et cetera, et cetera, we’re trying to really have any number of backgrounds supported along with talks and in broad general things, but then we get more specific into, “Hey, here’s for clinicians. Hey, here’s for the tips on making for effective practices.” 

Kimberley: Yeah, amazing. And I’ll actually be speaking on self-compassion there as well. So, I’m honored to be there. Thank you for being here, Justin. This was so wonderful. 

Justin: Yeah, this really was. Thank you.

Exploring the relationship between faith and recovery, especially when it comes to managing Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), reveals a complex but fascinating landscape. It's like looking at two sides of the same coin, where faith can either be a source of immense support or a challenging factor in one’s healing journey.

On one hand, faith can act like a sturdy anchor or a comforting presence, offering hope and a sense of purpose that's invaluable for many people working through OCD. This aspect of faith is not just about religious practices; it's deeply personal, providing a framework that can help individuals make sense of their struggles and find a pathway towards recovery. The sense of community and belonging that often comes with faith can also play a crucial role in supporting someone through their healing process.

However, it's not always straightforward. Faith can get tangled up with the symptoms of OCD, leading to situations where religious beliefs and practices become intertwined with the compulsions and obsessions that characterize the disorder. This is where faith can start to feel like a double-edged sword, especially in cases of scrupulosity, where religious or moral obligations become sources of intense anxiety and compulsion.

The conversation around integrating faith into recovery is a delicate one. It emphasizes the need for a personalized approach, recognizing the unique ways in which faith intersects with an individual's experience of OCD. This might involve collaborating with religious leaders, incorporating spiritual practices into therapy, or navigating the complex ways in which faith influences both the symptoms of OCD and the recovery process.

Moreover, this discussion sheds light on a broader conversation about the intersection of psychology and spirituality. It acknowledges the historical tensions between these areas, while also pointing towards a growing interest in understanding how they can complement each other in the context of mental health treatment.

In essence, the relationship between faith and recovery from OCD highlights the importance of a compassionate and holistic approach. It's about finding ways to respect and integrate an individual's spiritual beliefs into their treatment, ensuring that the journey towards healing is as supportive and effective as possible. This balance is key to harnessing the positive aspects of faith, while also navigating its challenges with care and understanding.

Justin K. Hughes, MA, LPC, owner of Dallas Counseling, PLLC, is a clinician and writer, passionate about helping those impacted by OCD and Anxiety Disorders. He serves on the IOCDF's OCD & Faith Task Force and is the Dallas Ambassador for OCD Texas. Working with a diversity of clients, he also is dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and mental health. A sought-after writer and speaker, he is currently mid-way through writing his first workbook on evidence-based care of OCD for Christians. He is seeking a collaborative agent who will help secure the best publishing house to help those most in need. Check out www.justinkhughes.com to stay in the loop and get free guides & handouts!

Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. Today, we’re talking about faith and its place in recovery. Does faith help your recovery? Does it hinder your recovery? And all the things in between. 

Today, we have Justin Hughes. Justin is the owner of Dallas Counseling and is a clinician and writer. He’s passionate about helping those who are impacted by OCD. He is the Dallas ambassador for OCD Texas and serves on the IOCDF’s OCD and Faith Task Force, working with a diversity of clients. He’s also dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and OCD, most commonly Christians. But today, we’re here to talk about faith in general. Welcome, Justin.

Justin: Kimberley Jayne Quinlan, howdy.

Kimberley: You said howdy just perfectly from your Texas state. 

Justin: Absolutely.

Kimberley: Okay. This is a huge topic. And just for those who are listening, we tried to record this once before, we were just saying, but we had tech issues. And I’m so glad we did because I have thought about this so much since, and I feel like evolved a little since then too. 

So, we’re here to talk about how to use faith in recovery and/or is it helpful for some people, and talk about the way that it is helpful and for some not. Can you share a little bit about your background on why this is an important topic for you?

Justin: Absolutely. So, first of all, as a man of faith, I’m a Christian. I went to a Christian college, got my degree in Psychology, and very much desired to interweave studies between psychology and theology. So, I went to a seminary. A lot of people hear that, and they’re like, “Did you become a priest?” No, it was a counseling program at a seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. I came here and then found my wife, and I stayed in Dallas. 

And it’s been important to me from a personal faith standpoint. And I love the faith integration in treatment and exploring that with clients. And of course -- or maybe I shouldn’t say of course, but it’s going to be a lot of Christians, but I work with a lot of different faith backgrounds. And there are some really important conversations happening in the broader world of treatment about faith integration and its place. And we’re going to get into all those things and hopefully some of the history and psychology’s relationship to faith, which has not been the greatest at different points.

For me personally, faith isn’t just an exercise. It’s not something that I just add on to make my day better. In fact, a lot of times, faith requires me to do way more difficult things than I want to do, but it’s a belief in the ultimate object of my faith in God and Christ as a Christian. I naturally come across a lot of people who not only identify that as important but find it as very essential to their treatment. And let’s get into that, the folks that find it essential, the people who find it very much not, and the people who don’t. But that’s just a little bit about me and why I find this so important.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s interesting because I was raised Episcopalian. I don’t really practice a lot of that anymore for no reason except, I don’t know, if I’m going to be really honest. 

Justin: So honest. I love that. 

Kimberley: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it a lot because I had a positive experience. Sometimes I long for it, but for reasons I don’t know. Again, I’m just still on that journey, figuring that piece out and exploring that. 

Where I see clients is usually on the end of their coming to me as a client, saying, “I’m a believer, but it’s all gotten messed up and mushed up and intertwined.” And I’m my job. I think of my job as helping them untangle it.

Justin: Yeah.

Kimberley: Not by me giving my own personal opinion either, but just letting them untangle it. How might you see that? Are you seeing that also? And what is the process of that untangling, if we were to use that word?

Justin: It’s so broad and varied. So, I would imagine that just like with clients that I work with and folks that come to conferences and that I talk with, the listeners in your audience, hi listeners, are going to have a broad experience of views, and it’s so functional. So, I want people to hear right away that I don’t think that there’s just a cookie-cutter approach. There can’t be with this. And whether we’re treating OCD, anxiety disorders, or depression, or eating disorders, or BFRVs, fill in the blank, there are obviously evidence-based treatments which are effective for most, but even those can’t be a cookie cutter when it comes down to exactly what a person needs to do or what is required of them in recovery. 

So, yes, let me just state this upfront for the folks that might be unduly nervous at this point. First of all, the faith piece, religious piece, does not have to enter into treatments for a lot of people to get the job done. In fact, actually, for a lot of people, it was much more healing for them, including many of my clients. I have friends and family members that sometimes look at me as scant. So like, “Wait, you went to seminary, and sometimes you don’t talk about God at all.” And it’s like, “Yeah, sometimes we’re just doing evidence-based treatment, and that is that.” And as an evidence-based practitioner, that’s important to me. 

So, when people come in, I want to work with what their goals are, their values. And a lot of people have found themselves, for any number of reasons, stuck, maybe compulsions or obsessive thoughts or whatever, are stuck in all things belief, religion, or faith or whatever else. And sometimes actually, the most healing thing for them to do is sometimes get in, get out, do the job clinically, walk away, experience freedom, and then grow and develop personally. 

But then I’ve also discovered that there’s this other side that some people do not find a breakthrough. Some people stay stuck. And maybe these are the people that hit the stats that we see in research of 20% or so just turn down things like ERP, (exposure and response prevention) with OCD when they’re offered. And then another 20 to 30% drop out. And we have great studies that tell us that most people who stick with it get a lot of benefits, but there’s all the other folks that didn’t. And sometimes it’s because people -- no offense, you all, but sometimes people just don’t want to put in the work and discipline. 

However, we can’t minimize it to that. Sometimes it’s truly people that are willing to show up, and there’s a complex layer of things. And the cookie-cutter approach is not going to work for them. Maybe they have the intersection of complex health issues, intersection of trauma, intersection of even just family of origin things where life is really difficult, or even just right now, a loneliness epidemic that’s happening in the world. 

And by the way, I’m a huge believer in the evidence base. There’s a lot in the evidence base that guides us. And as I’m talking today, I want to be really clear that when I work with folks, even when we get into the spiritual, I’m working with the evidence base. Yeah, there’s things that there’s no specific protocol for, but a lot of folks, I think, can hopefully be encouraged that there’s a strong research base to the benefits and the use and the application and also the care of practicing various spiritual practices through treatments. 

So, to come back to the original question, it depends so much. It’s like if somebody asked me a question like, “Hey, Justin. Okay, so as a therapist, do you think that --” and I get these questions all the time, “Is it okay for me to...? Like, I am afraid of this.” I got this question at one point. Somebody was curious if I thought it was okay for them to travel to another city. And it’s like, it depends. It’s almost always an “it depends.” 

So, that’s where I’m going to leave it, that nice, squeaky place that we all just want a dang answer, but the reality is, it is going to massively depend on the person and where they are, and what their needs are.

Kimberley: Yeah, I mean, and I’ll speak to it too, sometimes I’ve seen a client. Let’s give a few examples of a client with OCD. The OCD has attacked their faith and made it very superstitious or very fear-based instead of faith-based. And I think they come in with that, “Everything’s so messy and it used to make so much sense, and now it doesn’t.” 

For eating disorders, I’ve had a lot of clients who will have a faith component where there are certain religions that have ways in which you prepare foods and things, and then that has become very sticky and hard for them. The eating disorder gets involved with that as well. 

And let me think more just from a general standpoint, and I’ll use me as an example, as just like a generally anxious person. I remember this really wonderful time, I’ll tell you a funny story, when my daughter was like five, out of nowhere, she insisted that we go to every church. Like she wanted to go to a Christian and a Catholic and Jewish temple and Muslim and Buddhist. She wanted to try all of them, and we were like, “Great, let’s go and do it.” And I could see how my anxious brain would go black and white on everything they said. So, if they said something really beautiful, my brain would get very perfectionistic about that and have a little tantrum. I think it would be like, “But I can’t do it that perfect,” and I would get freaked out, but also be able to catch myself. So, I think that it’s important to recognize how the disorder can get mixed up in that.

Justin: Yeah, absolutely.

Kimberley: Right? Let’s now flip, unless you have something you want to add, to how has faith helped people in their recovery, and what does that look like for you as a clinician, for the client, for their journey?

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on the clinical side of things, the starting place is always going to be the assessments and diagnosis and treatment plan. And then the ethics of it too is going to be working with the person where they are and their beliefs and not forcing anything, of course. And so folks are naturally -- I get it, I respect it. I would be nervous of somebody of a different belief background that’s overt about things. Some people come in, they look at the wall, they see Dallas Theological Seminary, they’ve studied a few things in advance. So, yeah, the starting places, sitting down, honest, building rapport, trust, assessing, diagnosing.

So, for the folks where the faith piece is significant, I’ll put it into two categories. So, one is sometimes we have to talk about aspects of faith just from a pure assessment sample. So, a common example of that is scrupulosity in OCD. So, I have worked with even a person on the, believe it or not, Faith and OCD Task Force who is atheist. And so, why in the world do we need to talk about faith? Why is that person even on the Faith and OCD Task Force? Well, they’re representing a diversity of views and opinions on the role of faith and OCD. 

Kimberley: Love it.

Justin: And it’s so interesting to look at it at a base level with something like OCD. But frankly, a lot of mental disorders or even just challenges in life, if clinicians, one, aren’t asking questions about, hey, do you have any religious views, background, even just in your background? Do you have spiritual practices that are important to you? We’re missing a massive component. And here’s the research piece. We know from the research that, actually, a majority of people find things of faith or spirituality important, and secondarily, that a majority of people would like to be able to talk about those things in therapy. Straight-up research. So, a couple of articles that I wrote for the IOCDF on this reference this research. So, it is evidence-based to talk about this. 

And then when we get into these sticky areas of obsessions and anxiety disorders, of course, it’s going to poke on philosophy, worldview, spirituality. And so, it could be even outside of scrupulosity, beliefs that at first it just looks like we need some good shame reduction exercises, self-compassion, and so forth, but we discover that, oh, the person struggling with contamination OCD has a lot of deeper beliefs that they think that somehow, they are flawed because they’re struggling. They’re not a good enough, fill in the blank, Christian. They’re not good enough. Because if so, surely God would break through in a bigger way. If so... Wouldn’t these promises that I’m told in scriptures actually become true? 

And the cool thing is, there’s a richness in the theology that helps us understand the nuance there, and it’s not that simple. But if we miss that component, and it’s essential for treatment, it’s not just like, “Oh, I feel bad about myself. And yeah, sometimes I’m critical with myself.” And if we don’t go at that level of core fear, or core distress, or core belief, oftentimes we’re missing really a central part of the treatment, which we talk about in any other domain. People just get nervous sometimes, thinking about spirituality. It’s like politics and religion, right? Nobody talks about those things. Well, if we’re having deeper conversations, we usually are. And as clinicians, those of you that are listening to the podcast as clinicians, you know that you have to work with people of different political leanings, people of different faith leanings, people who actually live in California versus [inaudible]. I love California. 

So, the first category is, if we’re doing good clinical work, we’re going to be asking questions because it matters to most people. If we don’t, we’re missing a huge piece. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad therapist, but hey, start asking some questions if you’re not, at a minimum. 

But then there’s the second piece that most people actually want to know, and most people have some aspects of practice or integration, or even the most religion church-averse type of person will have any number of things come up such as, “Yeah, I pray occasionally,” or “Yeah, I do this grounding exercise that puts me in touch with the universe or creation or whatever it is.” 

So, there’s the second category of when it is important to a person because it’s part of the bigger picture of growth, it’s part of the bigger picture of breaking free from challenges that they have, and, frankly, finding meaning. And I’ll just make one philosophical comment here, because I’m a total nerd. Psychology can never be a worldview. Psychology tells us what. Psychology is a subset of science. And by worldview, I mean a collective set of beliefs, guidance, direction about how life should be lived. We can only say, “Hey, when you do this, you tend to feel this way, or you tend to do these behaviors more or do these behaviors less.” At the end of the day, we have to make interpretations and judgments about right and wrong, how to live life, the best way to live life. These are in the realm of interpretation. 

So, surprise, surprise, we’re in the realm of at least philosophy, but we very quickly get into theology. And so back to the piece that most people care about it, most people have some sort of spiritual practice that they’ll resonate with and connect with. And then most people actually want to integrate a little bit into therapy. And then some people find that it is essential. They haven’t been able to find any lasting freedom outside of going deeper into a bigger purpose, `bigger meaning.

Kimberley: You said a couple of things that really rang true for me because I really want to highlight here, I’m on the walk here as well as a client. And I love having these conversations with clients, not about me, about them, but them when they don’t have a spiritual practice, longing for one. I’ve had countless clients say, “I just wish I believed.” And I think what sometimes they’re looking for is a motivator. I have some clients who have a deep faith, and their North Star is that religion. Their North Star is following the word of that religion or the outcome of it, whether it be to go to heaven or whatever, afterlife or whatever. They believe like that’s the North Star. That’s what determines every part of their treatment. Like, “Why are we doing this exposure today?” “Because this is my North Star. I know where I’m heading. I know what the goal is.” And then I have those clients who are like, “I need a North Star. I don’t have one. I don’t get the point.” And I think that is where faith is so beautiful in recovery. 

When I witness my clients who are going to do the scary thing, they don’t want to do it, but they’re so committed to this North Star, whatever it might be. And maybe there’s a better language than a North Star, again, whatever that is for that person. Like, “I’m walking towards the light of whatever that religion is.” I feel, if I’m going to be honest, envious of that. And I totally get that some people do too. 

What would you say to a client who is longing for something like that? Maybe they have spiritual trauma in some respects or they’ve had bad experiences, or they’re just unsure. What would you say to them?

Justin: Yeah, that’s really great. And first of all, I just want to really say that it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to talk as you do. And one of the ways that I admire you, KQ, is through your ability to have these vulnerable conversations. So not just like the platform of expert, because at the end of the day, we’re all just people and on a journey for sure. And so thanks for being honest with that. 

And I’m on a journey as well. And certainly, I realized jumping on podcasts, these things put us in the expert role and we speak at conferences and things like that. But I think that’s a bit of the answer right there, is that being where we are to start with is so huge. And I mean, you’re so good with the steps to take around acceptance and compassion. That’s it. It’s like fear presses towards a thousand different possibilities, and none of them come true exactly that way. And it can lead towards people missing a lot of personal growth stuff, spiritual growth stuff. And one of those things, I think, that we do is we sit with that.

Clinically, I’m going to assess, ask a lot of questions, Socratic questions as a subset of the cognitive therapy side of doing that. Let me just come back to the simplicity. I think we get there. We sit in it for a second. And otherwise, we miss it. We’re rushing to preconceived solutions or answers, but we’re saying that we don’t necessarily have an answer for that. So, what if we take some time to actually notice it and to be with that and to actually label it and be like, “I’m not sure. I’m yearning. I’m envious. I’m wanting something, but I don’t know. So, put me in, coach.” I’ll sit with people. That’s really the first thing. 

Kimberley: Yeah. What I have practiced, and I’ve encouraged clients is also being curious, like trying things out if that lines up with their values, going to a service, reading a book, listening to a podcast, and just trying it on. For me, it’s also interesting with clients, is if they’re yearning for it, try it on and observe what shows up. Is it that black-and-white thinking or perfectionism? Is it your obsessions getting involved? Is it that it just doesn’t feel good in your body? And so forth. Again, just be where you are and take it slow, I think. 

I have a few other areas I want you to look at in terms of giving me your professional thoughts. If somebody wants to incorporate faith into their treatment, what can that look like? Can it look like praying together? What does that look like?

Justin: You’re asking all the good questions. Yeah, absolutely. And also, one other thing to reference, I know you’re friends with Shala Nicely and Jeff Bell. And so they wrote a book. And for those that are on that, I would say, more “I’m seeking journey,” it’s When in Doubt, Make Belief: An OCD-Inspired Approach to Living with Uncertainty. And I love Shala and Jeff. They’re so great, and they’ve been really pivotal people in my own life, not just as friends, but just as personal growth too. And so, that’s an example specifically where Shala talks about the throes of her suffering. Is Fred in the Refrigerator? is her basically autobiography that goes into the clinical piece too, where at the end of the day, there was a bit of a pragmatic experience that she couldn’t -- the universe being against her, she basically always had that view and she needed something that was different. And so she got there, I think. I hope I’m reflecting her sentence as well, but got there pragmatically. “The universe is friendly” is something that she said. 

Now, I just know that my Christian brothers and sisters, if they’re listening to this, they’re probably like, “What the heck is Justin talking about? The universe is friendly?” Because that’s very, very different from the language that we’ve used, but it’s just such a great example to me of just one step at a time, a person on the journey. They’re looking at those things and assessing, okay, what is obsessive, what is compulsive, what is this thing that I can believe in and I ultimately do, but maybe I’m not. I don’t want to or I’m not ready, or it doesn’t make sense to me to make a jump into an organized religious plea for whatever else. And so, how does it look for clients? 

So in short, do I pray with clients? Yeah, absolutely. Do I open up the Bible? Yes, absolutely. Actually, it is a minority of sessions, which again, on my more conservative friends and family side of things are almost shocked and scratching their heads. Like, “You’re a Christian, you do counseling, and you’re not doing that.” We’re a bunch of weirdos. We’re in that realm of the inter-Christian circle in a good sense. We believe so deeply that God loves us and God has interceded and does intercede, and interacts with our present, not just a historical event here and there, and we’re left on our own, the deistic watchmaker, to use a philosophical reference there. That because we believe that so strongly, we’re not going to take no for an answer in the sense of the deeper growth and deeper faith. 

So, sometimes that backfires though, especially getting into the superstitious, like, “Well, God’s got to be in everything, and I’m not feeling it,” as opposed to like, “Okay. Is it possible that I could just have a brain that gives me some pretty nasty thoughts sometimes and it doesn’t necessarily reflect that I’m in a bad state, that I can be curious about what a person getting mangled by a car might look like mentally and then be terrified by that?” And then like, “Thanks, brain, for giving me the imagination. Glad I can think through accidents so I can maybe be a safer driver.” Yeah, absolutely. But I will say that’s one of those sticky points a lot of times for Christians because we believe that thoughts matter and beliefs matter. And so there can be this overinterpretation of everything is always something really big and serious about my status and my heart, and something that’s really big and serious about spiritual things or demonic stuff, or fill in the blank. 

So, the faith integration piece, I do carefully, but I’m not scared of it. I’ve done it so often. It’s through a lot of assessments. It has to be from the standpoint of the client’s wanting that. Usually, the client is asking me specifically, like, “Hey, would you pray at the end of the session?” Sure, absolutely, in most cases. 

And this, such a deep topic. I’m fully aware that there are those in the camp that view faith integration as completely antithetical to what needs to happen in treatments. And they argue their case, they’re going to argue it really strongly, but the same exists on the other side as well. And I try and work in that realm of, okay, what’s good for the clients? And are there some things that I don’t do? Yeah, but I’m not really asked to do them. 

I’ve had a number of Muslim clients throughout the year. I don’t join in with Ramadan with clients in various practices or fasting with a client, for example. That’s not my faith practice there. But can I walk with the client who is trying to differentiate between the lines of fasting and I had water at this point, and the sun was going down and I thought. And other people were having water, but I’m getting stuck on assessing, like, was it too early, and did I actually violate my commitment, my vow? Did I violate what I was supposed to be doing? 

I can absolutely work with that person, and I need to. I can’t really work with OCD or anxiety disorders if I wanted to turn that person away at the door and be like, “Oh, well, I’m not Muslim, so I’m sorry.” No, we’re going to jump into it and be like, “Okay, so tell me about this thought and then this behavior that came up at this time, and you’re noticing that that’s a little different from your community, that other people are starting to drink water, eat food. And so, you mentioned that it was right at sunset, but what time was that?” “Well, actually, it was like 10:30 p.m. It’s two hours dark.” It’s like, “But I think I saw a glow in the distance.” And it’s like, “Okay, now we’re into a pretty classic OCD realm.” And so the simplest way that I can say that faith integration can be done in therapy is carefully, respectfully, with good assessments.

Kimberley: Do you have them consult with their spiritual leader if you’re stuck on that? And does that involve you speaking with them, them speaking with them, all three of you? What have you done?

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a collaboration that goes in a number of different ways. Most of the time, people can speak with their clergy member or faith leader pretty directly, pretty separately, and that is going to work just fine. I would say in most cases, people don’t need to, especially if I’m working with OCD. A lot of folks usually have a pretty good general sense of, “Okay, I know what my faith community is going to say about this is X, but I’m scared because it feels like it’s on shaky ground, I’m obsessing,” et cetera. 

So, the clarification with the clergy, for instance, or a leader is more from the standpoint of if there’s not a defined value definition practice, and that does come up for sure. So, helping that person to even find who that might be, especially if they’re not a part of that, and/or maybe a good article to read with some limits, like, okay, three articles max. Check out a more conservative view, a more liberal view, a more fill in the blank. 

And then my friend and colleague Alec Pollard up at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute, he’s been on scrupulosity panels with me. He uses this excellent form called the PISA, (Possibly Immoral or Sinful Act). And it’s just a great several-question guide. That or any number of things can be taken to clergyperson, leader in Christian circles a lot of times, like a Bible study or community group. Maybe flesh those things out just a little bit, maybe once, maybe twice max. 

And so, back to how much others are integrated, yeah, it’s a mix and match, anything, everything. For me, with direct conversations with clergy, it’s actually because I’m pretty deep into this realm, I have pretty easy access to a lot of folks, so I don’t really need to so much talk directly or get that person on a release. But a lot of people do, especially if they don’t know that religious belief or faith traditions approach on certain topics. 

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s so wonderful to talk about this with you. 

Justin: Thanks, Kimberley. Same here.

Kimberley: Because I really do feel, I think post-COVID, there’s more conversations with my clients about this. This could be totally just my clients, but I’ve noticed an increased longing, like you said, for that connection, the loneliness pandemic.

Justin: Yeah, that’s statistical. 

Kimberley: Such a need for connection, such a need for community, such a need for that, like what is your North Star? And it can be, even if we haven’t really talked about depression, it can be a really big motivator when you’re severely depressed, right?

Justin: Absolutely. 

Kimberley: And this is where I’m very much like so curious and loving this conversation with my clients right now in terms of, where is it helpful? Where isn’t it helpful? As you said, do you want to use this as a part of your practice here in treatment, in recovery? And what role does it play? I know I had mentioned to you, I’d even asked on Instagram and did a poll, and there were a lot of people saying, “It gave me a community. It immensely helps. It does keep me focused on the goal,” especially if it’s done intentionally without letting fear take over. Is there anything you wanted to add to this conversation before we finish up? 

Justin: Yeah, I guess two things. So, one is you talked about that, and we talked about a couple of those responses before we jumped on to recording. So, in summary, the responses were all across the board, like, “Ooh.” Let me know if I’m summarizing this well, but, “I have to be really careful. That can be really compulsive or not so much. I don’t like to do that. I don’t think it’s necessary.” And then like, yeah, absolutely. This is really integral and really important. Is that a fair summary?

Kimberley: Very much. Yep. 

Justin: Okay. And so, I’m building this talk, Katie O'Dunne and Rabbi Noah Tile, ERP As a Spiritual Practice. We’re giving here at the Faith and OCD Conference in April, if this is out by then. And in my section that I have, I’m covering the best practices of treatments, specifically ERP (exposure and response prevention) for OCD, and clinically, but then also from a faith standpoint, what do we consider with that? And there’s this three-prong separation that I’m making. I’m not claiming a hold on the market with this, but I’m just observing. There’s one category of a person who comes into therapy, and it’s like, yeah, face stuff, whatever. It doesn’t matter, or even almost antagonistic against it. Maybe they’ve been burnt, maybe they’ve been traumatized or abused with faith. Yeah, I get it. So, that first camp is there.

But then there’s also a second camp that people like to add on spiritual practices. They might mix and match, or they might follow a specific system, belief system. And whether it gets into mindfulness or meditation practices or fasting or any number of things, they find that there’s a lot of benefit, but it’s maybe not at the heart of it. 

And then there’s this third prong of folks that it is part and parcel of everything they do. And I work with all three. They come up in different ways. And sometimes people cycle between those different ones as well in treatments in the process.  

Kimberley: I’m glad you said that.

Justin: Yeah. And so, I just thought that was interesting when you pulled folks

that had come up. Really, the second thing, and maybe this is at least my ending points unless we have anything else, you had mentioned to the audience that graciously, we had some tech issues. You all, it wasn’t Kimberley’s tech issues. It was Justin’s tech issues. I spilled coffee on my computer like a week or two prior. It zapped. It’s almost like you’d see in a movie, except it wasn’t sparking. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness.” And it was in a client session. That was a whole funny story in of itself. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness.” It wasted my nice computer that I use for live streaming and all of that. And so I’m using my little budget computer at home. It’s like, “Oh, hopefully it works.” And it just couldn’t. It couldn’t keep up with all the awesomeness that KQ’s spitting out.

And I shared with you, Kimberley, a little bit on the email, something deep really hit me after that. I felt a lot of shame when we tried back and forth for 30 minutes to do it, and my computer kept crashing, basically because it couldn’t stand the bandwidth and whatever else was needed. And one might think it’s just a technical thing, but I’d had some stuff happen earlier that week. I started to play in my church worship band, lead guitar, and there was something that I just wasn’t able to break through, and I was just feeling ashamed of that. And it just really hit me. 

And one of my key domains that I am growing in is my own perfectionism, as a subset of my own anxiety, and perfectionism is all about shame. And I love performance, I love to perform well. I like to say, “Oh, it’s seeking excellence, and it’s seeking the best for other people’s good.” But deep down inside, perfectionism is this shame piece that anything shy of perfect is not good enough, and it just hit me. I felt like trash after that happened. I felt embarrassed. And you were so gracious, “It’s okay, we’ll reschedule.” 

And so, I went for a walk, which I do. Clear my mind, get exercise. And I was just stuck on that. And one of the ways where my Christian walk really came in at that moment was, I started to do some cognitive restructuring. I started to -- for you all who don’t know, it’s looking at the bigger picture and being more realistic with negative thoughts. Like, “Ah, I can’t believe this happened. I failed this,” as opposed to like, “Okay, we’re rescheduling. It’s all right. It actually gave us more time to think about it.” And I didn’t know that then, but I could have said similar things. 

I was doing a bunch of clinical tools that are helpful, but frankly, it wasn’t until I just tapped into the bigger purpose of, one, not controlling the universe. I don’t keep this globe spinning. I barely keep my own life spinning. Two, God loves me. And three, it’s okay. It’s going to work that out. Four, maybe there’s something bigger, deeper going on that I don’t know. And I can’t guarantee that it was for this reason. I’m not going to put that in God’s mouth and say that, “Oh yeah, okay, well, He gave us a couple more weeks to prepare.” I don’t know. I really don’t know. But it helped me to tap into like, “Okay, it’s all right. It’s really all right.” 

And it took me about half a day, frankly. I’m slightly embarrassed to say, “No, I’m not embarrassed to say that as a clinician who works with this stuff. I have full days, I have full weeks. I have longer periods of time where I’m wrestling with this stuff.” And yeah, areas have grown. I’ve improved in my life for sure, but I’m just a hot mess some days. 

Kimberley: But that’s nice to hear too, because I think, again, clients have said it looks so nice to be loved by God all the time. That must be so nice. But it’s not nice. I hate that you went through that. But I think people also need to know that people of faith also have to walk through really tough days and that it isn’t the cure-all, that faith isn’t the cure-all for struggles either. I think that’s helpful for people to know.

Justin: Yeah, that’s right. So, thank you for letting me share a little bit of that. And yeah, the personalized example of why, at least for me, faith is important. If folks come into my office and they say, “Nah, no thanks,” okay, I’m going to try lightly, carefully, or just avoid it altogether if that’s what they want. But oftentimes it’s really at the center of, okay, purpose, meaning, direction, guidance, and okay, you want to do that? I’ll roll up my sleeves, and let’s go. 

Kimberley: Yeah. See, I’m glad that it happened because you got to tell that beautiful story. And without that beautiful story, I would be less happy. So, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. I think I shared with you in an email like I’ve had to get so good at letting people down that I get it. And I love that you have that statement, like God loves me. That is beautiful. That’s like sun on your face right there. I love that you had that moment. 

Justin: Yeah, it comes up so much, so many times. In the Bible and even to -- like I wrote this article on Fear Not. So, the most common exhortation in all of the Christian Bible is fear not. So, one might think like, “Oh yeah, don’t commit adultery,” or “Don’t kill, don’t murder,” or fill in the blank. Not even close. The most common exhortation in all of scriptures is actually fear not, and then love, various manifestations all throughout. I could go on, but I know we’re out of time. 

Kimberley: Well, what I will say is tell people where they can hear about you and even access that if they’re interested. I love to read that article. So, where will people hear about you and learn more about the work you do? Please tell us everything.

Justin: Yeah, sure. And I’ll include some stuff for your show notes that you can send to the things referenced. And then JustinKHughes (J-U-S-T-I-N-K-H-U-G-H-E-S) .com is my base of operations where the contact, my email practice information, my blog is on there. And you can subscribe to my newsletter totally free. Totally, totally free. And I do a bunch of eBooks as well on there that are free. JustinKHughes.com/GetUnstuck to join one of four of the newsletters. 

Other than that, that’s where those announcements come out for different conferences. So, Faith and OCD, if this is out in time in April, but April every year, it’s getting to be pretty big. We’re getting hundreds of people attending. We’re now in our fourth annual IOCDF (International OCD Foundation Conference), local conferences, various live streams. So, anyway, the website is that base, that hub, where you’ll actually see any number of those different announcements. Thanks for asking. 

Kimberley: I’m going to make sure this is out before the conference. Can you tell people where they can go to hear about the conference?

Justin: Yeah. So, IOCDF.org. And then I think it’s /conferences, but you can also type into Google conferences and there’s a series of all sorts of different conferences going on. And this is the one that’s dedicated to OCD and faith concerns. And just when you think that it’s just one specific belief system, then prepare to be surprised because we’ve done a lot of work to have a diverse group of folks, sharing and speaking and covering a lot of things, ranging from having faith-specific or non-faith nuns, support groups. So, there are literally support groups if you’re an atheist and you have OCD, and that’s actually an important part of where you are in your journey. But for Christians, for Muslims, for Jewish, et cetera, et cetera, we’re trying to really have any number of backgrounds supported along with talks and in broad general things, but then we get more specific into, “Hey, here’s for clinicians. Hey, here’s for the tips on making for effective practices.” 

Kimberley: Yeah, amazing. And I’ll actually be speaking on self-compassion there as well. So, I’m honored to be there. Thank you for being here, Justin. This was so wonderful. 

Justin: Yeah, this really was. Thank you.