In the realm of mental health, the role of an anxiety therapist is often shrouded in mystery and misconceptions. To shed light on this crucial profession, Joshua Fletcher, also known as AnxietyJosh, shares insights from his latest book, "And How Does That Make You Feel?: Everything You (N)ever Wanted to Know About Therapy," in a candid conversation with Kimberley Quinlan on her podcast.

Joshua's book aims to demystify the therapeutic process, offering readers an intimate look behind the therapy door. It's not just a guide for those struggling with anxiety but an engaging narrative that invites the general public into the world of therapy. The book's unique angle stems from a simple yet intriguing question: Have you ever wondered what your therapist is thinking?

One of the book's key revelations is the humanity of therapists. Joshua emphasizes that therapists, like their clients, are complex individuals with their own vices, flaws, and inner dialogues. The book begins with a scene where Joshua, amidst a breakthrough session with a client, battles an array of internal voices—from the biological urge to use the restroom to the critical voice questioning his decision to drink an Americano right before the session.

This honest portrayal extends to the array of voices that therapists and all humans contend with, including anxiety, criticism, and analytical thinking. Joshua's narrative skillfully normalizes the internal chatter that professionals experience, even as they maintain a composed exterior.

The conversation also touches upon the diverse modalities of therapy, highlighting the importance of finding the right approach for each individual's needs. Joshua jests about "The Yunger Games," a fictional annual event where therapists from various modalities compete, underscoring the passionate debates within the therapeutic community regarding the most effective treatment methods.

A significant portion of the book delves into the personal growth and challenges therapists face, including dealing with their triggers and the balance between professional detachment and personal empathy. Joshua shares an anecdote about experiencing a trigger related to grief during a session, illustrating how therapists navigate their emotional landscapes while maintaining focus on their clients' needs.

The awkwardness of encountering clients outside the therapy room is another aspect Joshua candidly discusses. He humorously describes the internal turmoil therapists experience when meeting clients in public, highlighting the delicate balance of maintaining confidentiality and acknowledging the shared human experience.

Joshua's book, and his conversation with Kimberley, paint a vivid picture of the life of an anxiety therapist. It's a role filled with challenges, personal growth, and the profound satisfaction of facilitating others' journeys toward mental wellness. By pulling back the curtain on the therapeutic process, Joshua hopes to demystify therapy, making it more accessible and less intimidating for those considering it.

In essence, being an anxiety therapist is about embracing one's humanity, continuously learning, and engaging in the most human conversations without judgment. It's a profession that requires not only a deep understanding of mental health but also a willingness to confront one's vulnerabilities and grow alongside their clients. Through his book and the insights shared in this conversation, Joshua Fletcher invites us all to appreciate the intricate dance of therapy—a dance that, at its best, can be life-changing for both the therapist and the client.

Transcript: 

Kimberley: I’m very happy to have back on the show Joshua Fletcher, a dear friend of mine and quite a rock star. He has written a new book called And How Does That Make You Feel?: Everything You (N)ever Wanted to Know About Therapy. Welcome back, Josh.

Joshua: It’s good to be back. Thanks, Kim. When was the last time we spoke together on a podcast? I think you were on The Disordered podcast not so long ago. That was lovely. But I remember my guest appearance on Your Anxiety Toolkit was lovely.

HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL? 

Kimberley: I know. I’m so happy to actually spend some time chatting with you together. I’m very excited about your new book. It’s all about therapy and anxiety and what it’s really like to be an anxiety therapist and the process of therapy and all the things. How did this book come about?

Joshua: I wanted to write a book about people who struggle with anxiety, but in the mainstream, because a lot of the literature out there is very self-help, and it’s in a certain niche. One of my biggest passions is to write something engaging with a nice plot where people are reading about something or a storyline that they’re interested in whilst inadvertently learning without realizing you’re learning. That’s my kind of entertainment—when I watch a show and I’ve learned a lot about something or when I’ve read a book and I’ve inadvertently learned loads of things because I’m taking in the plot. 

With this book, I wanted to write a book about therapy. Now, that initially might not get people to pick it up, might not interest you, might not interest you about anxiety therapy, but I wanted to write something that anyone could pick up and enjoy and learn lots because I want to share our world that we work in with the general public. And so, the hook that I focused on here was, have you ever wanted to know what your therapist is thinking? And I thought, well, I’m going to tell people what I’m thinking, and I’m going to invite people behind the therapy door, and you’re going to see what I do and what’s going on in my head as I’m trying to work with people who struggle with mental health. 

I wrote the pitch for it. People went bananas, and they loved it because it’s not been done before. Not necessarily a good thing if it’s not been done before. And here we are. I love it. I’m really proud of it. I want people to laugh, cry, be informed. If you go on a journey, learn more about therapy, learn more about anxiety. All in one book.

THERAPISTS ARE HUMANS TOO

Kimberley: Yeah. I think that one of the many cool things about it is, as a therapist, people seem to be always very curious or intrigued about therapists, about what it’s like and what it’s like to be in a room with someone who’s really struggling, or when you’re handling really difficult topics, and how to be just a normal human being and a therapist at the same time.

Joshua: Yeah. What I want to write about is to remind people that therapists are humans. We have our vices and flaws. I’m not talking on behalf of you, Kim. I’m sure you’re perfect. 

Kimberley: No, no. No, no. Flawed as flawed could be.

Joshua: Yeah, but to a level that it’s like, even our brains have different voices in them all the time, different thought processes as part of our rationalization. And I want people to peer inside that and have a look. So, one of them is like the book opens with me and a client and it’s going really well, and this person’s talking, this character’s talking about where they’re up to, and celebrating on the brink of something great. And then there’s the voice of biology that just pops into the room, into my head. And it’s the biology of you need to go to the toilet. Why did it? And then the voice of critic comes in and says, “Why did you drink an Americano moments before this client?” Now you’re sat here, and you can leave if you want, but it would be distasteful. And you’re on this brink of this breakthrough. 

And so, I’ve got this argument going on in my head, going, “You need the toilet.” “Yeah, but this person’s on a breakthrough.” And then I got empathy, like, “Yeah, but they feel so vulnerable. They want to share this.” And then you’ve got analytical and all the chaotic conversations that are happening as a therapist as I’m sat there nodding and really wanting the best for my client.

THE VOICES IN OUR HEAD

Kimberley: Exactly. That’s why I thought it was so brilliant. So, for those of you who haven’t read it, I encourage you to, but Josh really outlines at the beginning of the book all of these different voices that therapists and all humans have. There’s the anxiety’s voice and there’s biology, which you said, like, “I need to go to the restroom,” or there’s the critic that’s judging you, or there’s the analytical piece, which is the clinical piece that’s making sense of the client and what’s going on and the relationship and all the things. And I really resonated with that because I think that we think as clinicians, as we get better and more seasoned, that we only show up with this professional voice we’re on the whole time, but we’re so not. We’re so not on the whole time. This whole chatter is happening in the background. And I think you did a beautiful job of just normalizing that.

Joshua: Thanks, Kim. It’s a book that therapists will like, but do you know what? People will identify their own voices in this, particularly the anxiety. You and I talk about anxiety all day every day, always beginning with what if—that voice of worry that sits around a big table of thoughts and tries to shout the loudest and often gets our attention. And I tried to show that this happens to a lot of people as well. It’s just the what-if is different. So, for some people, it’s, “What if this intrusive thought is true?” For some people, it’s, “What if I have a panic attack?” For some people, it’s, “What if this catastrophe I’ve been ruminating on for so long happens?” For therapists, it’s, “What if the worst thing that happens here, even in the therapy room?” 

I’m an anxiety therapist that has been through anxiety, and I still get anxiety because I’m human. So, I celebrate these voices as well. Also, because I’m human, I can be critical almost always of myself in the book. So, I’m not just criticizing the people I’m working with. Absolutely not. But that voice comes in, and it’s about balancing it and showing the work and what a lot of training to be a therapist is. It’s about choosing the voice. And I didn’t realize how much training to be a therapist actually helps me live day-to-day. Actually, I’m more rational when making more life decisions because I can choose to observe each voice, which was integral to me overcoming an anxiety disorder, as well as just facing life’s challenges every day.

WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE A THERAPIST? 

Kimberley: Right. Because we’re really today talking a lot about what it’s ACTUALLY like to be a therapist—and I emphasize the word ‘actually’—what is it actually like to be a therapist, if we were to be really honest?

Joshua: One thing I mentioned is that I talk about the therapeutic hour, which is how long, Kimberley?

Kimberley: Fifty minutes.

Joshua: Yeah. The therapy took out and I explained what we do in the 10 minutes that we have between clients on a busy day. And people imagine us doing meditation or grounding ourselves or reflecting or whatever. Sometimes I do do that. Sometimes I just scroll Reddit, look at memes, eat candy, and do nothing. And it’s different each time. That’s what I’m doing. I’m not some mystic sage in my office, sitting sinisterly under the lamplight waiting for you to come in. No, I’m usually faffing around, panicking, checking that I don’t look like a scruff, putting a brush through my hair, trying to hide the stains of food I’ve got on my shirt because I overzealously consume my lunch. 

And there’s obviously some funny stories in there, but also there’s dark stuff in there as well. When I trained to be a therapist, I went through grief, and I made some quite unethical decisions back when I was training. Not the ones I’m proud of, but it actually shows the serious side of mental health and that a lot of therapists become therapists because of their own journeys. And I know that that applies to a lot of therapists I know.

Kimberley: For sure. I have to tell a story. A few months ago—I’m a member of lots of these therapist Facebook groups—one of the therapists asked a question and said, “Tell me a little bit what your hour looks like before you see a client. What’s your routine or your procedure pre-clients?” And all these people were saying, “I journal and I meditate and all of these things.” Some people were like, “I water the plants and I get my laptop open.” And I just posted a meme of someone who’s pushing all the crap off my table and screeching into the computer screen and being like sitting up straight. And all of these people responded like, “Thank God,” because all the therapists were beautifully saying, and I just came in here honestly, “Sometimes I literally sit down, open the laptop, and it is a mess. But I can in that moment be like, ‘Take a breath,’ and be like, ‘Tell me how you’re doing.’” Like you said, how does that end? We start the therapeutic hour. And I think that we have to normalize therapists being that kind of person.

Joshua: Definitely. I think one of the barriers to people seeking therapy is that power dynamic, that age-old trope that someone stood leaning against a mahogany bookcase. You’ve probably got a mahogany bookcase. Your practice is really nice. I certainly have. I’ve got an Ikea KALLAX unit full of books I’ve never read. 

Kimberley: Exactly. Your books aren’t organized by color because mine are not.

Joshua: No, no. There’s just some filler books in there. Just like, why is Catcher in the Rye? Why is Catcher in the Rye? I don’t know, I just put it on there. I just want to look clever. Anyway, it’s like people are afraid of that power dynamic of some authority figure going in there about to judge them, mind-read them, shame them, or analyze them. And no, I think dispelling that myth by showing how human we are can challenge that power dynamic. It certainly did for me. I would much rather open up to someone who isn’t showing the pretense that they have all of life together. Don’t get me wrong, professionalism is essential, but someone who’s professional and human, because going to therapy is some of the most human experiences you’ll ever do. I don’t want someone who isn’t showing too scared to show that sign or certain elements of being human, but obviously professionally. And it’s a fine balance to get. But when you do find a therapist like that, for me personally, one who’s knowledgeable, compassionate, empathetic, has humility, I think beautiful things can happen.

Kimberley: Yeah. I think you use the word that I exactly was thinking of, which is, it’s such a balancing act to, as a therapist, honor your own humanity from a place of compassion. Like, yeah, we’re not going to have it all together and it’s not going to be perfect, and we won’t say the right thing all the time. But at the same time, be thoughtful and have the skills and the supervision to balance it so that you are showing up really professional and from that clinical perspective. 

DO THERAPISTS GET CONSULTATION? 

Tell me a little bit about consultation as a clinician. I know for me, I require a lot of consultation for cases, not because I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m always going to be honest with the fact that maybe I’m seeing it from a perspective that I hadn’t thought of yet. What are your thoughts on that kind of topic?

Joshua: Therapy’s got to work for both people as well, because the therapeutic connection, I believe, is one of the drivers that promotes therapeutic growth and change. It promotes trust. I will consult with clients and my supervisor and make sure it’s right. I’m not everyone’s cup of tea, but for people, particularly with anxiety disorders, I think they like to know and come to therapy. I think I’ve used self-disclosure on my public platforms tastefully in the sense that I know what it’s like to have gone through an anxiety disorder, whether it’s OCD or panic disorder or agoraphobia, and come out the other side. 

But also, it’s balancing that with, “Actually, I’m your therapist here. I will help you in a therapeutic setting and use my training.” You know I’m not someone who’s got everything worked out, but you do know that someone who can relate that can step into your frame of reference, something I talk about a lot in the book frame of reference and empathy. If you feel like a therapist has done that and is in your frame of reference and it’s like, “Ah, yeah, they get it or they’re at least trying,” and we as therapists feel like there’s a connection there too on a professional and therapeutic level, I think magic can happen. And I love therapy for that. Not all therapy is great and beautiful and wonderful. Some of it is messy, and some of it just doesn’t work sometimes. And I do talk about that too, but it’s about when you get that intricate dance and match between therapist and client, I think it’s life-changing.

WHAT TYPE OF PERSON DO YOU NEED TO BE TO BECOME AN ANXIETY THERAPIST?

Kimberley: Yeah. What do you think about the type of person you would have to be to be an anxiety specialist, especially if you’re doing exposure and response prevention? The reason I ask that is I have a private practice in California. I have eight clinicians that work for me. Almost every time I have a position that’s open, and when I’m interviewing people to come on to my team, I would say 60% come in, and they’re good to go. They’re like, “I want to do this. I love the idea of exposure therapy.” But there is often 40% who say, “I’m not cut out for this work. This is not how I was trained. It’s not how I think about things.” After I’ve explained to them what we do and the success rate and the science behind it, they clearly say, “This isn’t for me.” What are your thoughts about what it takes or what kind of person it takes to be an anxiety specialist?

Joshua: That’s a great question. First of all, you’ve got to trust and believe in the modality that you’re trained in. You and I use the principles a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure response prevention. I’ve got first-hand experience of that. You’ve got to trust the science and what we know about human biology, which is really important. It’s about what you’re trading in that modality. What I talk about -- again, see how I’m segueing it back to the book. Brilliant. I’ve done my media training, Kim. It’s like, “Always go back to the book. Come on, Josh.” One of my favorite chapters in the book is explaining about modalities because a lot of people just think therapy is one big world where you see a therapist, they wave a magic wand, you feel better, and suddenly our parents love us again. No, that’s not how it works. 

Kimberley: It’s not?

DIFFERENT TYPES OF ANXIETY THERAPISTS

Joshua: No, it’s not. Mental health has different presentations, and a modality is a school of thought that approaches difficulties in mental health. So, the first modality I go to is person-centered, which is counseling skills, listening, empathy, unconditional positive regard. 

The Carl Rogers way of thinking—I think I love that. Is that good for OCD, intrusive thoughts, exposure therapy, and phobias? Not really. It’s nice to have a base of that because there’s more chance of a therapist being understanding, stepping in your frame of reference, and supporting you through that modality. But I wouldn’t say it’s equipped for that. 

Whereas in CBT, a lot of it is psychoeducation, which I love. And that’s a different modality. Cognitive behavioral sciences, whether it’s third wave, when you’re looking at acceptance commitment, where are you looking at exposure response prevention. There’s lots of song and dance about I-CBT at the moment and things like that. They’re all different modalities and skills of thought. 

Then you’ve got psychodynamic, which is the mahogany bookcase, lie on the sofa, let’s play word association. Oh yeah, you want to sleep with your mom, Josh? No, I don’t. That’s nothing to do with why I keep having panic attacks in the supermarket. Stop judging me. But that’s a different type of approach. Jungian approach can be quite insightful, but it’s got to match what the presentation is for you. 

I think CBT is my favorite, but it sucks for stuff like grief. When I was grieving, I did not want CBT. I did not want my grief formulated. I did not want to see that my behaviors were perpetuating discomfort. I was like, “Yeah, that’s just part of my grieving process.” And in this chapter, I just talk about the different modalities.

Therapists are very passionate about the modality of the school that they train in because you have to give part of yourself to it. You have to go through it yourself. And I’m very passionate about the modalities I’m trained in. And so, I play on this in the book. There’s a chapter called The Younger Games or The Yunger Games, a play on words. And basically, it’s once-a-year therapists from every modality, whether it’s hypnotherapy, transactional analysis, CBT, person-centered, the trauma-informed. All of these, they all meet up in a field, and we all fight to the death. And the last remaining person is crowned the one true modality. Now last year, it was hypnotherapy. And what I also say is that a betting tip for next year is the trauma-informed. So, every year, I’ll keep you updated on The Yunger Games. And basically, it’s a narrative device to explain that. 

Within the world of therapy, there are different types of therapists. You and I, we love CBT. We’ll bang the drum for that. We feel that there’s not enough ERP out there that certainly isn’t, particularly with the evidence and the points towards it and mountains of evidence. But other therapists may not feel the same. So, when people come to work at CBT School and they realize that Dumbledore, aka Kim Quinlan, is like, “No, we do ERP here; we’ve got to get down and dirty and do the horrible work,” they’re like, “That’s not conducive to the softer step-back approach that I’ve trained in, in my modality.”

Kimberley: Yeah. I’m always so happy that they just are honest with me. I remember as an intern at OCD Center in Los Angeles very clearly saying, “Are you okay talking about really very sexual, very, very graphic topics?” He listed off. Like, “Here is what you’re going to need to be able to talk about very clearly with a very straight face. You can’t have a wincing look on your face when you talk about intrusive, violent sexual thoughts. You’re going to have to be up for the game.” And I think that was a big thing for me. But what I think is really cool about your book, and you see now I’m bringing it back to your book, is it doesn’t mean the voice isn’t in your head sometimes questioning you. As I was reading it, I’m like, there is an imposter in therapists all the time saying, like you said, the critic that’s like, “You don’t know what you’re doing. You’re a failure. You’re a flake. You’re a complete fraud. You haven’t got it together. Maybe you haven’t even worked on the thing yourself yet.” That’s going to be there.

Joshua: Yeah, and I still get that. I can’t speak for you. But I think what makes a good therapist is a therapist who self-doubts. You don’t want to go and see a therapist who thinks that they’ve got it all worked out. That’s a red flag in itself. A good therapist is one that always wants to improve and uses that doubt and anxiety to make themselves a better therapist. Don’t get me wrong, I’m pretty confident in my ability to be a therapist now, but there are challenges.

In the book, the voices that come up, there’s 13 of them. One of them is escapist, which is, “I just want to get the hell out of you,” or “Maybe I want to get rid of this client. I’m not equipped for it.” And then the other voices come in and they’re like, “But maybe this is just you being critical,” or “The evidence suggests that actually you are trained for this,” and navigating that doubt, the anxiety that your therapist has. And I think it’s a beautiful thing. 

A lot of therapists are very harsh on themselves, but I think it’s a gift to have that inner critic. Because if you stand there like one of these therapists, and these therapists do exist, unfortunately, I have completed all my training. I know everything inside out. My word is gospel. I worked out what the problem was with this person within 10 minutes. You don’t want to talk to that person. What a close-minded moron. And there’s a judgmental voice from a therapist.

Kimberley: No, but I think that’s informed.

Joshua: So, it celebrates the vulnerability. You want a therapist who’s not got everything worked out. Absolutely. I do anyway.

Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I’m wondering, how often have you had to work through your own shit in the room with a client? Meaning—I’ll give you a personal example—the very first time I ever experienced derealization for myself was with a client, and I was sitting across from them. They were just talking, and all of a sudden, I had this shift, like everything wasn’t real. Their head looked enormous and their body looked tiny. Like they were this tiny little bobbly head thing on the couch. And I knew what was happening. Thankfully, I knew what it was like. I knew what it was. Otherwise, I probably would have panicked, but I had to spend the rest of the session being as level and mindful as I could as I watched their head just bubble around in this disproportionate way. I got through it. I can say confidently I think I pulled it off really well, but it was hard. And I left the session being like, “What the heck just happened?” Has there been any experiences for you like that?

Joshua: Yeah, all the time. I mean, first of all, I’d question if you did have derealization. I was your client with a giant head and a tiny body. I was like, “What’s going on here?” There wasn’t derealization. That’s my body, Kim.

Kimberley: No, that’s just how I look, Kimberley. 

Joshua: It’s just how I look. 

Kimberley: “Stop judging.”

Joshua: But in general, no, it’s true. And again, one of the voices in my book, And How Does That Make You Feel?, it’s called trigger because therapists, they have to give a lot of themselves and they’re living a life and have had stuff in their past. One of the voices is trigger. One of the things I get asked a lot is, I don’t know about you, Kim, “If you’ve had anxiety, how can you work with it all day?” I’m like, “Because I’m all right with it. It’s okay now.” Sometimes it creeps in, though, if I’m tired or have not slept well. There’s stress in my personal life that you can’t avoid. Maybe I’ve not eaten too well. Maybe it’s just ongoing things. Sometimes trigger can happen, and it can be a stress-induced trigger or it could be a literal trigger from a traumatic event. 

So, in the book, I explain when people bring grief and death, that sometimes makes me feel vulnerable because of my own experiences with grief and death. No spoilers, but the book throughout, one of the themes is why I became a therapist. Not only because of my passion for anxiety disorders and to be self-righteous around other therapists, train different modalities, but also because it’s a very grief-informed decision to want to help people. 

And there’s several traumatic stories. One traumatic story around grief, that trigger, the voice of trigger will come up. So, a client could be talking about their life, like, “I’ve lost this person; I’m going to talk about it.” And of all these 13 voices around the table, what your therapist is thinking, trigger then shouts loudest. It goes, “Ah, trigger.” There’s some pain that you’ve not felt for a while and I’ve got to navigate it. You navigated the derealization, the dissociation. You’ve got to navigate it somehow by pulling on the other voices. And not only do therapists do this, but people do this as well sometimes, whether you’ve got to be professional or you don’t want to turn up to your friend’s birthday and just listen to trigger and anxiety and start crying all over your friend’s birthday cake. You might do. It’s quite funny, but not funny. 

Kimberley: I was going to say, what’s wrong with that? 

Joshua: Have you done it again? I thought you stopped that. 

Kimberley: Yeah. You haven’t done that? 

Joshua: It’s part of the interview at CBT School. You need to do really hard, tricky things. Go to your best friend’s birthday and make it all about you. 

Kimberley: Exactly.

Joshua: But yeah, it’s one of those. It crops up. The book’s funny a lot, but it’s good. It takes some really serious turns, and it shows you a lot of stuff can creep in and how I deal with it as a therapist. And I’m sure you related to it as well, Kim, because we do the same job, but you just do it in a sunnier climate.

SEEING CLIENTS IN PUBLIC 

Kimberley: Right. What I can say, and this will be the last thing that I point out, is you also address the awkwardness of being a therapist, seeing your clients in public and the awkwardness of that, or the, “Oh crap, I know this person from somewhere.” Again, no trigger. I don’t want to give the fun parts of the book, but as a therapist, particularly as someone who does exposure therapy, I might go across the road and take a client to have coffee because they’ve got to do exposures. We very often do see people, our clients, our friends in our work. How much does that impact the work that you do?

Joshua: If you ever bump into your therapist, just know that you have all the power there. Your therapist is squirming inside, “I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know. Do I completely blank this person?” But then I look like a dick. “Do I give a subtle nod? Oh, you’re breaking confidentiality. They’re out with loved ones.” It’s up to you. You can put your therapist out of their misery by just saying, “Hey, Kim.” “Hey, Josh.” And then I will say hi back because that shows that you’re okay with that. 

There is a very extreme shocking version of this story, of this incident in the book where, when I’m at my lowest, I do bump into a previous client. On a night out, when I’m off my face on alcohol. Oh, if you want to find out more about that... Media training’s really paid off. Get him on the hip. 

Kimberley: I didn’t want to give it all away, and you just did.

Joshua: No, no, not giving any more away. A media training woman said, “Entice them, then leave it, because then they’re more likely to read it.” So, I have listened to that media woman because my previous tactic of just begging and screaming into a camera doesn’t work. It’s like...

Kimberley: But going back exactly—going back, we are squirming. I think that is true that there is a squirm factor there when you see clients, and it happens quite regularly for me. But I think I’ve come to overcome that by really disclosing ahead of time. Like if I see you outside, you’re in the place of power, you decide what to do, and I’ll just follow your suit. It’s a squirm factor, though.

Joshua: See, that’s clever, good therapy stuff because you do it all part of the contracting and stuff. Actually, I told all my clients this is okay. But also, when you’re a new therapist or sometimes you forget, you’re like, “Oh no.” I used to run a music night in Manchester as part thing I did on the side. Enjoy it, love music, I was the host. One week I was on holiday, so a friend organized all the lineup of people to come down. Headline Act was a band name. Went along, and when I’m there, I’m having fun. I’ve got whiskey in my hand. I’m walking around telling irreverent, horrible jokes. No one in there would guess I was a therapist because I’m having fun and I’m entitled to a life outside the therapy room. 

What I didn’t know was that the Headline Act was a current client, and they’d just arrived dead late. They didn’t know, and they walked on stage, and I looked. It’s something that they’ve gone on publicly to talk about, so this is why I’m saying it now. I got permission to use it because they said it publicly on the radio and stuff like that. And we just looked at each other. It was like, “Oh my God.” And I stood there with this. I was like, “Oh my God.” And I’ve said all this bad language and cracking jokes, roasting people in the audience, my friends usually. And it’s like, yeah, I was squirming. 

So, at this point, I did just pretend I didn’t know them because it was the best I could do. And they got me out of trouble. They were obviously confident in performance mode. And they got onto mic and was like, “Can you believe that guy is my therapist?” And I was like, “What?” I was like, “Wow.” And then he said some really lovely things. And it wasn’t really awkward in therapy. If anything, it was quite something we laughed about in therapy afterwards, and it contributed to it. But yeah, the horror I felt. Oh, I felt sick, and oh. I don’t want to think about it.

FINAL CONCLUSIONS

Kimberley: I want to be respectful of time. Of course, before you share this all about you and where people can get a hold of you and learn about your book, is there anything you want to say final point about what it’s like to actually be an anxiety therapist?

Joshua: It’s the best job in the world for me. It’s the best job in the world. All my friends and family go, “I don’t care how you can do that.” I love it. I get to have the most human conversations with people without judgment. You mentioned before about intrusive thoughts. I’ve got the magic guitar in this room, and we make songs about horrible intrusive thoughts. There was one the other day about kicking babies down the stairs. You can’t say that out loud. Yes, we do in here, to the three chords of the guitar I only know, particularly postpartum mothers. 

Kimberley: You told me we couldn’t sing today. 

Joshua: No, I’m not singing.

Kimberley: I wanted to sing today, and now you’re telling me we can’t sing.

Joshua: I don’t think it’s going to be Christmas number one—a three-chord banger about harming loved ones or sexual intrusive thoughts—but you never know. Yeah, it’s the most beautiful job.

Kimberley: I am known to sing intrusive thoughts to happy birthday songs.

Joshua: That’s a good one. I have to close my window though in my office because I do get scared that people walk past and like, “Wow, that’s a very disturbed man.” No, he’s not. I’m confident in the powers of ERP and how it can help.

Kimberley: You are. I love it. Josh, tell us where we can hear more about your book and learn more about you.

Joshua: I’m Joshua Fletcher, also known as AnxietyJosh on social media and stuff. The book is called And How Does That Make You Feel?: Everything You (N)ever Wanted to Know About Therapy. It follows the stories of the four client case studies, obviously highly scrambled and anonymized, and gone through a rigorous ethical process there. So, don’t be like, “He’s talking about his clients.” No, that’s not what the book’s about. It’s about appearing in behind the therapy room door. It’s out in the US before the UK, which is here. I don’t know if anyone’s watching or whatever, but there it is. And it’s also been commissioned to be a television show for major streaming services. We don’t know which one yet, but it’s exciting. 

Go get yourself a copy. It should be in your bookstore. Get it at Barnes & Noble and all the other US ones. And I think you’ll really enjoy it. So, it’s a really lovely endorsement. Kim has also said it’s really good, and Kim is harsh. So, if Kim says it’s good, then it’s going to be good. And I hope you really enjoy it and pass it on to a loved one who doesn’t have anxiety, and you’ll find that, “Oh, I actually learned quite a lot there whilst laughing and being captivated by the absolute bananas behind-the-scenes life of being a therapist.”

Kimberley: Yeah, I love it. Josh, the way that you present it, if I was scared to go to therapy, I think it would make me less scared. I think it would make me feel like this is something I could do.

Joshua: And that’s the best compliment I can receive, because that’s why I wrote the book. So, thank you so much.

Kimberley: Yeah. So fun to have you. Thanks for being here.

Joshua: Thanks, Kim.

In the realm of mental health, the significance of structured daily routines for depression cannot be overstated. Kimberley Quinlan, an anxiety specialist with a focus on mindfulness, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), and self-compassion, emphasizes the transformative impact that Daily Routines for Depression can have on individuals grappling with this challenging condition.

Depression, characterized by persistent feelings of sadness, hopelessness, and a lack of interest in once-enjoyable activities, affects every aspect of one's life. Quinlan stresses that while professional therapy and medication are fundamental in the treatment of depression, integrating specific daily routines into one's lifestyle can offer a complementary path toward recovery and mental wellness.

THE POWER OF MORNING ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION

Starting the day with a purpose can set a positive tone for individuals battling depression. Quinlan recommends establishing a consistent wake-up time to combat common sleep disturbances associated with depression. Incorporating light physical activity, such as stretching or a gentle walk, can significantly boost mood. Mindfulness practices, including meditation, journaling, or gratitude exercises, can help foster a healthier relationship with one's thoughts and emotions. Additionally, a nutritious breakfast can provide the necessary energy to face the day, an essential component of "Daily Routines for Depression."

DAYTIME ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION

Throughout the day, setting realistic goals and priorities can help maintain focus and motivation. Quinlan advocates for the inclusion of pleasurable activities within one's schedule to counteract the anhedonia often experienced in depression. Techniques like the Pomodoro Method can aid in managing tasks without becoming overwhelmed, breaking down activities into manageable segments with short breaks in between. Exposure to natural light and ensuring a balanced diet further contribute to improving mood and energy levels during the day.

EVENING ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION

As the day draws to a close, engaging in a digital detox and indulging in relaxation techniques become crucial. Limiting screen time and investing time in hobbies or skills can provide a sense of accomplishment and fulfillment. Establishing a calming bedtime routine, including activities like reading or taking a bath, can enhance sleep quality, an essential factor in "Daily Routines for Depression."

WEEKLY ACTIVITIES TO OVERCOME DEPRESSION

Quinlan also highlights the importance of incorporating hobbies and community engagement into weekly routines. Finding a sense of belonging and purpose through social interactions and new skills can offer a much-needed respite from the isolating effects of depression.

NAVIGATING TOUGH DAYS WITH COMPASSION

Acknowledging that the journey through depression is fraught with ups and downs, Quinlan advises adopting a compassionate and simplified approach on particularly challenging days. Focusing on basic self-care and seeking support when needed can provide a foundation for resilience and recovery.

In conclusion, Daily Routines for Depression are not just about managing symptoms but about rebuilding a life where mental wellness is prioritized. Through mindful planning and self-compassion, individuals can navigate the complexities of depression and move towards a more hopeful and fulfilling future.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

If you’re living with depression today, we are going to go through some daily routines for your mental wellness. 

Welcome. My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m an anxiety specialist. I talk all about mindfulness, CBT, self-compassion, and skills that you can use to help you with your mental wellness. 

Let’s talk about living with depression, specifically about daily routines that will set you up for success. My goal first is to really highlight the importance of routines. Routines are going to be the most important part of your depression recovery, besides, of course, seeing your therapist and talking with your doctor about medication. 

This is the work that we do at home every day to set ourselves up for success, finding ways that we can manage our depression, overcome our depression by tweaking the way in which we live our daily life because the way we live our lives often will impact how severe our depression can get.

There are some behaviors and actions that can very much exacerbate and worsen depression. And there are some behaviors and routines that can very much improve your depression. So, let’s talk about them today.

DEPRESSION SYMTPOMS

Let’s first just get really clear on depression and depression symptoms. Depression is a common and can be a very serious mental illness and medical condition that can completely negatively impact your life—the way you feel, the way you think, the way you act. It often includes persistent feelings of sadness, emptiness, hopelessness, worthlessness that can really impact the way you see yourself and your own identity. It often includes a lack of interest in pleasure in the activities that you once enjoyed. 

Depression symptoms can vary from mild to very severe. They can include symptoms such as changes in appetite, sleep disturbances, loss of energy, excessive guilt, difficulty thinking or concentrating. Sometimes you can feel like you have this whole brain fog. And again, deep, overwhelming feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness. 

Now, it is important to recognize that depression is not just a temporary bout of sadness. It’s a chronic condition. It’s one that we can actually recover from, but it does require a long-term treatment plan, a commitment to taking care of yourself, including therapy and medication. So, please do speak to your medical professional and a mental health professional if you have severe depression or think you might have severe depression. 

It can also include thoughts of wanting to die and not feeling like you want to live on this earth anymore. Again, if that’s something that you’re struggling with, please go to your local emergency room or immediately seek out professional mental health or medical health care. 

It is so important that you do get professional help for depression because, again, depression can come down like a heavy cloud on our shoulders, and it tells a whole bunch of lies. We actually have a whole podcast episode about how depression is a big fat liar. And sometimes when you are under the spell of those lies, it’s hard to believe that anything else might be true. So, it’s very important that we take it seriously. And as we’re here today to talk about, it’s to create routines that help really nurture you and help you towards that recovery. 

TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION

Before we move into those routines, I want to quickly mention the treatment for depression. The best treatment for depression is cognitive behavioral therapy. Now there is often a heavy emphasis on mindfulness and self-compassion as well. Cognitive behavioral therapy looks at both your thoughts and your behaviors. And it’s important that we look at both because both can impact the way in which this disorder plays out. 

If you don’t have access to a mental healthcare professional, we also have an online course called Overcoming Depression. Overcoming Depression is an on-demand online course where I teach you the exact steps that I use with my clients to propel them into setting up their cognition so that they’re healthy, their behaviors, so that they bring a sense of pleasure and motivation, and structure into their daily lives. And then we also very heavily emphasize self-compassion and that mindfulness piece, which is so important when it comes to managing highly depressive and hopeless thoughts. So, that’s there if you want to go to CBTSchool.com/depression, or you could go to CBTSchool.com, and we have all the links right there. 

DAILY ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION

All right, so let’s talk about daily routines for depression. Research shows that, specifically for depression, finding a routine and a rhythm in your day can greatly improve the chances of your long-term recovery. And so, I really take time and slow down with my patients and talk to them about what routines are working and what routines are not. I’m not here to tell you or my patients, or my students how to live their lives and what to do specifically. I’m really interested at looking at what’s working for you and what’s not. Let’s first start with morning routines. 

What often very much helps—and maybe you already have this, but if not, this is something I want you to consider—is the importance of a consistent wake-up time. When you’re depressed, as I mentioned before, a common depression symptom is sleep disturbance. Often, people lay awake all night and sleep all day, or they sleep all night and they sleep all day, and they’re heavily overwhelmed with this sleepy exhaustion. It is really important when it comes to morning routines that you set a time to wake up every morning and you get up, even if it’s for a little bit, if that’s all you can handle. Try to set that really consistent wake-up time. 

What I want to emphasize as we go through these routines for depression is I don’t mind if you even do tiny baby steps. One thing you might want to start from all of the ideas I give you today, you might just want to pick one. And if that’s all you can do, that is totally okay. 

What we also want to do is we want to, if possible, engage in some kind of light movement, even stretching, to boost mood. There’s a lot of routine, even just stretching or gentle walks outside. It doesn’t have to be fast. It doesn’t have to be for an hour. It could be for a quarter of a block to start with. But that light exercise has been shown to boost mood significantly. And then if you’re able, maybe even to do that multiple times throughout the day. 

Another morning routine that you may want to consider is some type of mindfulness practice. Again, we cover this in overcoming depression and with my patients in CBT, but some kind of mindfulness practice. It might be journaling, it could be a gratitude practice, it could be preferably some kind of meditation. Often, what I will encourage my clients to do is just listen to a guided meditation, even if you don’t really follow along exactly. But you’re just learning about these concepts. You’re learning about the tools. You’re getting curious about them if that’s all you can do. Or if you want, you could even go more into reading a book about mindfulness, starting to learn about these ideas and concepts because they will, again, help you to have a better relationship with your thoughts and your feelings. 

Another morning routine I want you to maybe consider here is to have some type of nutritious breakfast, something that supports your mental health. We want to keep an eye out for excessive sugar, not that there’s anything wrong with sugar, but it can cause us to have another energy dump, and we want to have something that will improve our energy. With depression, usually, we don’t have much energy at all. So, whatever tastes yummy, even if nothing feels yummy, but there’s something that maybe slightly sounds good, have that. If it’s something that you enjoy or have good memories about, or if it’s anything at all, I’m happy just for you to eat anything at all if it’s not something that you’ve been doing. 

Let’s now move over to work-day or daytime strategies or routines. The first thing I want you to consider here throughout the day is setting realistic daily goals and priorities. We have a course at CBT School called Optimum Time Management, and one of the core concepts of that course, which teaches people how to manage their time better, is we talk about first prioritizing what’s most important. 

If you have depression, believe it or not, one of the most important things you can do to prioritize in your daily schedule is pleasure. And I know when you have depression, sometimes nothing feels pleasurable. But it’s so important that you prioritize and schedule your pleasure first. Where in the day can you make sure that you do something enjoyable, even if it’s this enjoyable, even if nothing is enjoyable, but you used to find it enjoyable? We want to prioritize your self-care, prioritize your eating, having a shower, brushing your teeth. If nothing else gets done that day, that’s okay. But we want to prioritize them depending on what’s important to you. 

Now, if you’re someone who’s depressed because you’re so overwhelmed with everything that you have to do—again, we talk about this in the time management course—we want to really look at the day and look at the schedule and say, “Is this schedule nurturing a mental health benefit to me? Is it maybe time for me to reprioritize and take things off my schedule so I can get my mental health back up to the optimum level?” 

I have had to do this so many times in the last few years, especially as I have suffered a chronic illness, really separate like an hour to really look at the calendar and say, “Are these things I’m doing actually helping me?” Sometimes I found I was doing things for the sake of doing them to check them off the list, but I was getting no mental benefit from them. No real value benefit from them either. 

Another daytime strategy you can use is a technique or a tool called the Pomodoro Technique or the Pomodoro Method. This is where we set a timer for a very short period of time and we go and we do the goal and we focus on the thing for a short period of time. So, an example might be I might set a timer for 15 minutes, and all I’m going to do during that 15 minutes is write email. If 15 minutes is too much for you, let’s say maybe you need to tidy up your dishes, you might set a timer for 45 seconds and just get done with what you can for 45 seconds and then take a short break. Then you set the timer again. All I have to do is 45 seconds or a minute and a half or three minutes or five minutes, whatever is right for you, and put your attention on just getting that short Pomodoro little bout done. 

This can be very helpful to maintain focus. It can be very helpful to maintain the stress of that activity, especially if it’s an activity that you’re dreading. And so, do consider the Pomodoro technique. You can download free apps that have a Pomodoro timer that will set you in little increments. It was actually, first, I think, created for exercise. So, it sets it like 45 minutes on, 20 seconds off, 45 seconds on. And so, you can do that with whatever task you’re trying to get done as well. 

Another daytime routine I want you to consider is getting some kind of natural light or going outdoors. There is so much research to show that going outside, even if it’s for three minutes, and taking in the green of the earth or the dirt under your feet, really getting in touch and grounding with some kind of nature, or being in the sunlight, can significantly improve mood. So, consider that as well. And again, I’m going to mention, make sure you eat lunch. Eat something that boosts your mood and boosts your energy levels. 

Now let’s talk about evening or wind-down routines for depression or practices. Now, number one, one of the things that we often do the most, which we really need to be better about, and this is me too, is doing some kind of digital detox in the evenings. Try your hardest to limit screen time before bed because we know screens before bed actually disturb our sleep. We also know that often we spend hours, hours of our day scrolling on social media. And even though that might feel pleasurable, it actually removes us from engaging in hobbies and things that actually make us feel good about ourselves. 

One of the best ways to feel good about who you are and to feel accomplished is to be learning something or mastering something. I don’t care if it’s something that you’re starting and you’re terrible at. We have a lot of research that even moving and practicing a skill will improve and boost your mood so much more than an hour of sitting and watching funny TikTok videos. 

Now, again, if all you want to do is that for right now, that’s fine. Maybe spend five minutes doing some hobby or task—something that you enjoy or used to enjoy—that you feel like you’re getting better at. Maybe you learn Spanish, you learn to crochet, you learn to knit, you do paint by number. It doesn’t matter what it is. Just pick something and work at something besides looking at a screen, especially in the evenings. 

Another evening routine I want you to consider is some kind of relaxation technique for depression—reading, take a bath, maybe do again some stretching or some light yoga, maybe dance to one song. Anything you can do to, again, move your body. Again, we have so much research to show that moving your body gently, especially in the evening, can help with mood. 

Another thing here is to find a comfortable sleep routine and bedtime routine. So, if you can, again, go back to your scheduling, and if you’re not good at this—we do have that online course for time management—create a nighttime routine that feels yummy in your bones. Maybe it’s reading a book, a lovely warm blanket, the pillow you love, a scent—sometimes an oil diffuser would be lovely for you. Dim the lights, close the blinds, create a nice, warm, cozy nook where you can then ease into your sleep. 

Overall, weekly activities and routines that you may want to consider for your mental wellness include again finding hobbies. It doesn’t have to be grand. You don’t have to sign up for a marathon. You don’t have to become an amazing artist. You can just pick something that you suck at. That’s okay. 

I always tell my patients to do paint by number. It requires very little mental energy, but you do have this cool thing that you did at the end that you can gift somebody, or you can even scrap it at the end, it doesn’t matter. Put it up on your wall—anything to get you out of your head and out of the mood piece—and really get into your body, moving your hands and thinking about focusing on other things. 

One of the most important things that you can do to help boost mood and decrease depression is to find a community of like-minded people. The social interaction and improving and maintaining connections between people are going to be so important. In fact, in some countries, the treatment per se for depression, no matter how depressed somebody is, the community go and get them, bring them out, they have a party for them, they cook for them, they surround them, they dance with them. And that’s how those communities and tribes help people get through depression. And we in our Western world have forgotten this beautiful, important piece of community and being a part of a big community family. 

Now, if you have struggled with this and it’s been difficult, I encourage you to reach out to support groups. There are so many ways—meet-up groups, local charities, volunteering, maybe finding again a hobby, but a place where you go and you’re with other people, even just doing that. You don’t have to spend a lot of time, but being around people. Even though when you’re depressed, I know it doesn’t feel like that’s a helpful thing. We do know that it does connect those neural pathways in our brain and does help with the management and maintenance of depression recovery. 

Now, what do we do, and how can we maintain these routines on the really tough days? When it comes to handling the tough days, I understand it can feel overwhelming. All of this can feel like so, so much. But what I’m going to encourage you to do is keep it really simple. Just doing your basic functioning is all that’s required on those really tough days. It doesn’t matter if you don’t get all the things done on your list. Be compassionate, be gentle, encourage yourself, look at the things you did do instead of the things you didn’t get to do, and also seek support. Reach out to your mental health professional or a support group or your medical doctor or family or a friend or a neighbor if you’re really needing support. 

There will be hard days. Depression is not linear. Recovery for depression is not linear. It’s up and down. There will be hard days. So, be as gentle as you can. Keep it as simple and as basic as you can. Do one thing at a time. Try not to focus at the whole day and all the things you have to do. That’s going to help you feel less overwhelmed and, again, help you get through one thing a day. 

Let me do a quick recap. The importance of routine is huge. Routines are going to be probably one of the most important parts of your long-term recovery, besides, of course, treatment and medication. It will help you to get through the hard and stressful days and will also allow you to slowly make steps into the life that you want, and often, because we have depression, depression can take away the life that we want. So, that routine can help you slowly build up to the things that you want to do and get back to the life that you do really value. 

I encourage you all to play around with this. Remember, look at the routine you have already, and maybe add one thing for now. Take what works for you, but if some of the things I mentioned today, don’t leave them. Please don’t feel judged or embarrassed if some of these aren’t really working for you. We have to look at what works for us and be very gentle with ourselves with that as well.

I hope this has been helpful. The routines have really saved me in my mental health. And so, I hope it helps you just as much as it’s helped me. 

Have a great day, and I’ll see you guys next week.

In the insightful podcast episode featuring Joanna Hardis, author of "Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way," listeners are treated to a deep dive into the concept of distress tolerance and its pivotal role in mental health and personal growth. Joanna Hardis, with her extensive background in treating anxiety disorders such as panic disorder, OCD, and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, shares her professional and personal journey toward understanding and teaching the art of effectively managing internal discomfort without resorting to avoidance or escape tactics.

The discussion begins with an exploration of the title of Joanna's book, "Just Do Nothing," which encapsulates the essence of her therapeutic approach: the intentional practice of stepping back and allowing thoughts, feelings, and sensations to exist without interference. This practice, though seemingly simple, challenges the common impulse to engage with and control our internal experiences, which often exacerbates suffering.

A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to "distress intolerance," a term that describes the perceived inability to endure negative emotional states. This perception leads individuals to avoid or escape these feelings, thereby increasing vulnerability to a range of mental health issues including anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. Joanna emphasizes the importance of recognizing and altering the self-limiting beliefs and thoughts that fuel distress intolerance.

Practical strategies for enhancing distress tolerance are discussed, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch and gradually progressing to more challenging scenarios. This gradual approach helps individuals build confidence in their ability to manage discomfort and makes the concept of distress tolerance applicable to various aspects of life, from parenting to personal goals.

Mindfulness is highlighted as a crucial component of distress tolerance, fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort and enabling us to respond with intention rather than impulsivity. The podcast delves into the importance of connecting with our values and reasons for enduring discomfort, which can provide the motivation needed to face challenging situations.

Joanna and Kimberley also touch on the common traps of negative self-talk and judgment that can arise during distressing moments, advocating for a more compassionate and accepting stance towards oneself. The idea of "choice points" from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is introduced, encouraging listeners to make decisions that align with their values and move them forward, even in the face of discomfort.

The episode concludes with a message of hope and empowerment: everyone has the capacity to work on expanding their distress tolerance. By starting with small, manageable steps and gradually confronting more significant challenges, individuals can cultivate a robust ability to navigate life's inevitable discomforts with grace and resilience.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: 

• The Concept of "Just Do Nothing":
  • This core idea revolves around the practice of intentionally not engaging with every thought, feeling, or sensation, especially when they're distressing. It's about learning to observe without action, which can reduce the amplification of discomfort and suffering.
• Understanding Distress Intolerance:
  • Distress intolerance refers to the belief or perception that one cannot handle negative internal states, leading to avoidance or escape behaviors. This concept highlights the importance of recognizing and challenging these beliefs to improve our ability to cope with discomfort.
• Building Distress Tolerance:
  • The podcast discusses practical strategies to enhance distress tolerance, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch. The idea is to gradually expose oneself to discomfort in a controlled manner, thereby building resilience and confidence in handling distressing situations.
• Mindfulness and Awareness:
  • Mindfulness plays a crucial role in distress tolerance by fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort. This awareness allows us to respond intentionally rather than react impulsively. The practice of mindfulness helps in recognizing when we're "gripping" distressing thoughts or sensations and learning to gently release that grip.
• Aligning Actions with Values:
  • The podcast emphasizes the significance of connecting actions with personal values, even in the face of discomfort. This alignment can motivate us to face challenges and make choices that lead to personal growth and fulfillment, rather than making decisions based on the urge to avoid discomfort.

These concepts together form a comprehensive approach to managing distress and enhancing personal well-being, as discussed by Joanna Hardis in the podcast episode.

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TRANSCRIPTION: 

Kimberley: Welcome, everybody, today. We have Joanna Hardis. Joanna wrote an amazing book called Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. It was a solid gold read. Welcome, Joanna.

Joanna: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for reading it, too. I appreciate it.

Kimberley: It was a wonderful read and so on point, like science-backed. It was so good, so you should be so proud.

Joanna: Thank you.

Kimberley: Why did you choose the title Just Do Nothing?

Joanna: I mean, it’s super catchy, but more importantly than that, it is really what my work involves on a personal level and on a professional level—learning how to get out of my own way or our own way by leaving our thoughts alone, learning how to leave uncomfortable feelings alone, uncomfortable sensations alone, uncomfortable thoughts alone. Because that’s what creates the suffering—when we get so engaged in them.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such a hard lesson. I talk about this with patients all the time. But as I mentioned to you, even my therapist is constantly saying, “You’re going to have to just feel this one.” And my instinct is to go, “Nope. No thanks. There has to be another way.”

Joanna: A hundred percent. Yes. I mean, it really is something on a daily basis. I have to remind myself and work really hard to do.

Kimberley: It is. But it is such powerful work when you do it. 

Joanna: Mm-hmm. 

Kimberley: Early in the book, you talk about this term or this concept called ‘distress intolerance.’ Can you tell us what both of those are and give us some ideas on why this is an important topic?

Joanna: Sure, and this is what got me interested in the book and everything. Distress tolerance is a perception that you can handle negative internal states. And those internal states can be that you feel anxious, that you feel worried, you feel bored, vulnerable, ashamed, angry, sad, mad, off. There’s an A to Z alphabet of those unpleasant and uncomfortable emotional states. And when we have that perception that we can handle it, our behavior aligns, so we tend to do things. 

When we are distress-intolerant, we have a perception—often incorrect—that we cannot handle negative internal states. So then we will either avoid them or escape them or try to figure them out or neutralize them or try to get rid of them, make them stop—all the things that we see in our work every day. 

Before I had my practice in anxiety disorders, I worked over a decade in an eating disorder treatment center, and we know that when someone has really low distress tolerance, they are more vulnerable to developing eating disorders, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, substance use disorders. So, it’s a really important concept.

Kimberley: It’s such an important concept. And you talk about how the thoughts we have which can determine that. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Because there was a whole chapter in the book about the thoughts you have about your ability to tolerate distress.

Joanna: Sure, and I didn’t answer the second part of your question., I just realized, which will tie into that, which is how it sounds. How it sounds is, “I can’t bear to feel this way, so I’m going to avoid that party,” or “I’m having too good of a day, so I can’t do my homework,” or “I can’t bear if my kids see me anxious, so we’re not going to go to the playground.”

And so, what drives someone’s perception are their thoughts and these thoughts and these self-limiting stories that we all have, and that oftentimes we just buy into as either true, or perhaps at one point, they may have been true, but we’ve outlived them.

Kimberley: Yeah. We’re talking about distress tolerance, and I’m always on the hunt to widen my distress tolerance to be able to tolerate higher levels of distress. And I think what’s interesting is, first, this is more of a question that I don’t know the science behind it, but do you think some people have higher levels of distress which makes them more intolerant, or do you think the intolerance which is what makes the distress feel so painful?

Joanna: I don’t know the research well enough to answer it. Because I think it’s rare that you see -- I mean, this is just one construct. So it’s very hard to isolate it from something like emotional sensitivity or anxiety sensitivity or intolerance for uncertainty, or something else that may be contributing to it.

Kimberley: Yeah. No, I know. It’s just a question I often think about, particularly when I’m with patients. And this is something that I think doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. What matters is—and maybe this will be a question for you—if our goal is to increase our distress tolerance, how might somebody even begin to navigate that?

Joanna: Sure. I love that question. I mean, in the book, I take it down to such a micro level, which is learning how—and I think you’ve talked about it on podcasts—itch serve. So, one of the exercises in the book is learning how you set your timer for five minutes and you get itchy, which of course is going to happen. And it’s learning how to ride out that urge to scratch the itch. So, paying attention to. If you zoom in on the itch, what happens?  What happens when you zoom out? What else can you pay attention to? 

And so when someone learns that process, that is on such a micro level. I often tell patients it’s like a one-pound weight.

Kimberley: Yes.

Joanna: And then what are some two-pound weights that people can use? So then, for many people, it’s their phone. So, it’s perhaps not checking notifications that come in right away. They begin to practice in low-distress situations because I want people to get confident that they know how to zoom in, they know how to zoom out. They know if they’re feeling a sensation, the more that they pay attention to it, the worse it’s going to feel. And so, where else can they put their awareness? What else can they be doing? 

And once they get the hang of it, we introduce more and more distress. So then, it might be their phone, then it might be them intentionally calling up a thought. And we work up that way with adding in, very gradually, more distress or more discomfort. Exercise is a great way, especially if it’s not married to anxiety, to get people interacting with it differently.

Kimberley: Yeah. We use this all the time with anxiety disorders. It’s a different language because we talk about an ERP hierarchy, or your exposure menu, and so forth. But I love that in the book, it’s not just specific to that. It could be like you talked about. It’s for those who have depression. It’s those who have grief. It’s those who have eating disorders. It’s those who have anger. I will even say the concept of distress tolerance to me is so interesting because there’s so many areas of my life where I can practice it. Like my urgency to nag my kids another time to get out the door in time, and I have to catch like, “You don’t need to say it the third time.” Can you tolerate your own discomfort about the time it’s taking them to get out the door? And I think that when we have that attitudinal shift, it’s so helpful.

Joanna: Yes. I find parenting as one of the hardest places for me, but it was also a reminder like the more I keep my mouth shut, the better.

Kimberley: Yeah. And I think that’s really where I was talking before. I found parenting to be quite a triggering process as my kids have gotten older, but so many opportunities for my own personal growth using this exact scenario. Like your fear might come up, and instead of engaging in that fear, I’m actually just going to let it be there and feel it and parent according to my values or act according to my values. And I’ve truly found this to be such a valuable tool.

Joanna: Yes. And I have found what’s been really interesting, when my kids were at home, that was where my distress was. Now that the two of the three are out of the house, my distress is when we’re all together and everyone have a good time. And so, it morphs, because what I tell myself and my perception and the urgency, it changes. It’s still so difficult with them, but it changes based on what’s happening.

Kimberley: Yeah. And I think this is an opportunity for everyone, too. How much do you feel that awareness piece is important in being aware that you are triggered? For the folks listening, of course, you’re on the Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast. Most are listening because they have anxiety. Do you encourage them to be aware of other areas? They can be practicing this. 

Joanna: Yes.

Kimberley: Can you talk to me about that?

Joanna: 100%, because I feel like -- what is that metaphor about the onion? It’s like the layers of an onion. So, people will come, and they’ll think it’s about their anxiety. But this is really about any uncomfortable feeling or uncomfortable sensation. And so. It may be that they’re bored or vulnerable or embarrassed or something else. So, once someone learns how to allow those feelings and do what is important to them or what they need to do while they feel it, then yes, I want them to go and notice where else in their life this is showing up.

Kimberley: Talk to me specifically about how in real-time, because I know that’s what listeners are going to ask. 

Joanna: Of course.

Kimberley: I have this scary thing I want to be able to do, but I don’t want to do it because I’m scared, and I don’t want to feel scared. How might someone practice tolerating their distress in real-time?

Joanna: I’m going to answer two ways. One, I would say that might be something to scale. Sometimes people want to do the thing because doing the thing is like the goal or the sexy thing, but if it’s outside of their window of tolerance, they may not be able to do it. So, it depends on what they want to do. So, I might say, as just a preface, this might be something that people should consider scaling. 

Kimberley: Gradual, you mean?

Joanna: Yes. So, for instance, they want to go to the gym, but they’re scared of fainting on the treadmill or something. Pretty common for what we see. It would be like, scale it back. So it might be going to the parking lot. It might be taking a tour. It might be going and standing on the treadmill. It might be walking on the treadmill. But we have to put it in smaller pieces. 

In the moment that we’re doing something that is difficult, first, we have to notice if we’re starting to grip. I use this “if we’re starting to grip” something. If we’re starting to zoom in on what we don’t like, if we’re starting to zoom in on a sensation we don’t like, a thought we don’t like, a feeling we don’t like, I want people to notice that and you get better at noticing it faster. 

The first thing is you got to notice it, that it’s happening, because that’s going to make it worse. So, you want to be able to notice it. You want to be able to loosen your grip on it. So, that might be finding out what else is going on in my surroundings. So, I’m on the treadmill, I’m walking maybe at a faster pace, and I’m noticing that my heart rate is going up, and I’m starting to zoom into that. What else am I noticing, or what else am I hearing? What else do I see? What else is going on around me? Can we make something else a louder voice?

And so, every time that my brain wants to go back to heart focus, it’s like, no, no. It’s taking it back to something else that’s going on. And it helps to connect with why is this important to do? So, as I’m continuing to say, “I’m okay. I am safe. I’m listening. I’m focusing on my music, and I’m looking out the window," This is really important to do because my health is important. My recovery is important. It becomes that you’re connecting to something that’s important, and the focus is not on what we don’t like because that’s going to make it bigger and stronger.

Kimberley: Right. As you’re doing that, as we’ve already mentioned, someone might be having those can’t thoughts, like I can’t handle it, even if it’s within their window of tolerance, right? It’s reasonable, and it’s an appropriate exposure. How might they manage this ongoing “You can’t do this, this is too hard, it’s too much, you can’t handle it” kind of thinking?

Joanna: I like “This may suck, and I can do it.”

Kimberley: It’s funny. I will tell you, it’s hilarious. In the very beginning of the book, you make some comments about the catchphrases and how you hate them, and so forth. I always laugh because we have a catchphrase over here, but it’s so similar to that in that we always talk about, like it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. And that seems to be so hopeful for people, but I do think sometimes we do get fed, like over positive ways. You have a negative thought, so we respond very positively, right? And so, I like “This is going to suck, and I’m going to do it anyway.”

Joanna: Yes. So you’re acknowledging this may suck, especially if you’re deconditioned, especially if you’re scared. It may suck AND—I always tell people not the BUT—AND I can do it. Even in 30-second increments. So, if someone is like, “I can’t, I cant,” I’ll say, “You can do anything for 30 seconds.” So then we pile on 30 seconds.

Kimberley: Yeah. And that’s such an important piece of it too, which is just taking a temporary mindset of we can just do this for a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit. 

Joanna: Yes, I love that. I love that.

Kimberley: Why do we do this? What’s the draw? Sell me on why someone wants to do this work.

Joanna: To do...?

Kimberley: Distress tolerance. We talk about this all the time. Why do we want to widen our distress tolerance?

Joanna: Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh. I think once you realize all the little areas that may be impacting one’s life, it just blows your mind. But in a practical sense, people can stay stuck. When people are stuck. This is often a piece. It’s absolutely not the whole reason people are stuck, but this is such a piece of why people get stuck. And so I think for anyone that might feel stuck, perhaps they want a different job or they want to show up differently as a parent or they feel like they are people-pleasers, or they’re having trouble dating because they get super controlling. It can show up in any area of one’s life.

Kimberley: Yeah. For me, the selling point on why I want to do it is because it’s like a muscle—if I don’t continue to grow this muscle, everything feels more and more scary.

Joanna: Oh, sure. Yeah, hundred percent.

Kimberley: The more I go into this mindset of “You can’t handle it and it’s too much, it’s too scary” things start to feel more scary. The world starts to feel more unsafe, whereas that attitude shift, there’s a self-trust that comes with it for me. I trust that I can handle things. Whereas if I’m in the mindset of “I can’t,” I have no self-trust. I don’t trust that I can handle scary things, and then I’m constantly hypervigilant, thinking when the next scary thing's going to happen.

Joanna: Right. Another reason to also practice doing it, if you never challenge it, you don’t get the learning that you can do it.

Kimberley: Yeah. There’s such empowerment with this work.

Joanna: Yes. And you don’t have to do big, scary things. You don’t have to jump out of an airplane to do it or pose naked, because I see that on Instagram now, people who are conquering their fears by doing these. Very Instagram-worthy tasks, which could be very scary. We can do it, just like you say, with not nagging our kids, by choosing what I want to make for dinner versus making so many dinners because I am so scared that I can’t handle it if my kids are upset with me.

Kimberley: Right. And for those who have anxiety, I think from the work I do with my patients is this idea of being uncertain feels intolerable. That feeling. You’re talking about these real-life examples. And for those who are listening with anxiety, I get it. That feeling of uncertainty feels intolerable, but again, that idea of widening your tolerance or increasing your ability to tolerate it in 10-second increments can stop you from engaging in compulsions that can make your disorder worse or avoiding which can make your disorder worse. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Joanna: I 100% agree with you. I always say, let’s demote intolerable to uncomfortable. Because I feel sometimes like I have to know I can’t stand it, I’m crawling out of my skin. But if I’m then able to get some distance from it, that’s the urgency of anxiety.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such beautiful work.

Joanna: Yes, and especially the more people do, they’re able to say, “You know what? I can do things.” It may feel intolerable. That diffusion, it may feel intolerable. It’s probably uncomfortable. So, what is the smallest next step I can take in this situation to do what I need to do and not make it worse? That’s a big thing of mine—not making a situation worse.

Kimberley: Yes. And that’s where the do-nothing comes in.

Joanna: Yes. That’s the paradoxical part. 

Kimberley: Yeah. Is there any area of this that you feel like we haven’t covered that’s important to you, that would be an important piece of this work that someone may consider as they’re doing this work on their own?

Joanna: I think and I know that you are a big proponent of this too. I think it’s very hard to do this work without some mindful awareness practice. And I talk about it in the book. It’s just such an enhancer. It enhances treatment, but it also enhances our daily life. So, I can’t say strongly enough that it is so important for us to be able to notice this pattern when we are saying, “Oh my gosh, I can’t take this,” or “I can’t do this.” And then the behavior and to think about what’s the function of me avoiding. But if we’re going so fast and our gas pedal is always to the floor, we don’t have the opportunity to notice.

Kimberley: Yeah, the mindfulness piece is so huge. And even, like you’re saying, the mindfulness piece of the awareness but also the non-judgment in mindfulness. As you’re doing the hard thing, as you’re tolerating distress, you’re not sitting there going, “This sucks and I hate it.” I mean, you’re saying like it will suck, and that's, I think, validating. It validates you, but not staying in “This is the worst, and I hate it, and I shouldn’t be here.” That’s when that suffering does really show up. 

Joanna: Yes. The situation may suck. It doesn’t mean I suck. That was a hard lesson to learn. The situation may, but I don’t have to pour gas on it by saying, “How long is it going to last? Oh my gosh, this feeling’s never going to end. Do I still feel it? Oh my gosh, do I still feel it as much?” All the things that I’m prone to do or my clients are prone to do that extend the suffering.

Kimberley: Make it worse.

Joanna: Yeah, exactly.

Kimberley: It’s a great question, actually. And I often will talk with my patients about it, in the moment, when they’re in distress. Sometimes writing it down, like what can we do that would make this worse? What can we do that will make this better? And sometimes that is doing nothing at all. And you do talk about that in the book.

Joanna: Yeah.

Kimberley: The forward and the backward. 

Joanna: The choice points. Yes.

Kimberley: Can you share just a little bit about that?

Joanna: It’s a concept from ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) that says, when we have a behavior, a behavior can either move us toward or forward what’s meaningful in our values or can move us away from it. And so, as we’re thinking about doing whatever the hard thing maybe or it may not even be a hard thing; it just may be something you don’t want to do. Thinking about what your why is, what’s the forward move? Why is it meaningful to you? What do you stand to get? What’s on the other side? Because most of us are well versed, and if we give in, that’s an away move. And we have to be able to do this non-judgmentally because some days it’s just not in us, and that’s totally fine. But I want people to be honest with themselves and non-judgmental about whatever decisions they make. But it does help to have a reason that moves us forward.

Kimberley: Absolutely. I think that’s such an important piece of the work. Again, that’s the selling point of why we would want to be uncomfortable. There’s a goal or a why that gets us there.

Joanna: Yeah. And it’s amazing how much pain we will put up with. I mean, think about all the things people like—waxing and some of these exercise classes. It’s amazing because it’s important to someone.

Kimberley: Exactly. And I think that’s a great point too, which is we do tolerate distress every day when we really are clear on what we want. And I think sometimes we have these things like I can’t handle it, but you might even ask like, what are some harder things that I’ve actually tolerated in my lifetime?

Joanna: Yes, exactly because there’s a lot of things you’re so right that we do that are uncomfortable, but it’s worth it because, for whatever reason, it’s worth it.

Kimberley: Yeah, I love this. I have loved chatting with you. I know I’ve asked you this already, but is there any final words you want to share before we learn more about you and where people can get in touch with you?

Joanna: I just want people to know that anybody can do this. It may be that it’s just creating the right scale—a small enough step forward—but anybody can work on this. There are so many areas and ways in which we can strengthen this muscle. And so there is hope. No one is broken. It may be that people just don’t know the next best move.

Kimberley: I love that. Thank you. Where can people hear more about you and get in touch with you?

Joanna: My website is JoannaHardis.com and my Instagram is the same thing, @JoannaHardis. And excitingly, the book just came out in audio yesterday. 

Kimberley: Congratulations. 

Joanna: Thank you. Thank you. 

Kimberley: That’s wonderful. And we can get the book wherever books are sold. 

Joanna: Wherever books are sold, yes.

Kimberley: I really do encourage people to buy it. I think it’s a book you could pick up and read once a year, and I think that there’s messages. You know what I’m saying? There are some books where you could just revisit and take something from, so I would really encourage people to buy the book and just dabble in the many concepts that you share.

Joanna: Wonderful. Thank you.

Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. This is such a concept and a topic that I’m really passionate about, and for myself too. I think it’s something I’ll be working on until I’m 99, I think.

Joanna: Me too. I’m with you right there.

Kimberley: There’s always an opportunity where I’m like, “Oh okay. There’s another opportunity for me to grow. All right, let’s get on board. Let’s go back to the school.” So, I think it’s really wonderful. Thank you so much for being here.

Joanna: Thank you so much for having me.